Israel

[jimboston]

'I wouldn't have to bomb your school if Hamas hadn't made me so angry!'

Starting to suspect jim would really benefit from a PSA or two:

It’s more like…

'Please vacate your school immediately! We will be bombing that building in two days because Hamas has built tunnels underneath from which they are launching rockets to kill civilians. We wouldn’t need to destroy Hamas except they have stated they want to Kill all Jews, and they proved they weren’t lying by launching a sneak attack and killing women and children en masse last week.’

You can’t always properly summarize complex points in snippy little sentences.

I’m not starting to suspect, I KNOW… Ralph would benefit by admitting to himself he hates the West. I’m not going to pretend any knowledge could change his position. Like Saxi he has an agenda and he’s not about to let little things like FACTS get in the way of pushing that agenda.

[jimboston]

Jesus, a page and a half arguing about trivia.

What the f*ck difference does it make whether Hamas beheads the babies, or bakes them in a pie, or feeds them to Azeri hookers?

Murder is murder. Adding gruesome methods helps sell tabloids, but it makes no difference in the end. Even if the 1,400 were given calming drugs and then euthanized by the most humane methods possible, it's still murder.

+1

but Saxi would still argue this point.

He’d likely claim the Jews took the pills of their own free will because, after talking to Hamas over tea, they realized their “Occupation” of Palestine was immoral.

[jimboston]

Jesus, a page and a half arguing about trivia.

What the f*ck difference does it make whether Hamas beheads the babies, or bakes them in a pie, or feeds them to Azeri hookers?

Murder is murder. Adding gruesome methods helps sell tabloids, but it makes no difference in the end. Even if the 1,400 were given calming drugs and then euthanized by the most humane methods possible, it's still murder.

I mean, sure, war does kill people... but that's no excuse to go arround irresponsibly calling it murder.

I mean, afterall, somebody else could then just turn around and label your own war take-downs as murder!

You wouldn't want that, would you?

Death in war may sometimes be murder; but is NOT always murder.

What Hamas did on October 7th was murder…
*Attacking civilians in their homes with no notice.
*No declaration of war.
*Fighters in civilian clothes with no insignia or uniform representing themselves as combatants.
*Not accepting surrender, killing people after they’ve surrendered.

These are all violations of the “rules of war” and are either ware crimes or outright murder.

Hamas continues to commit war crimes by…
*Hiding behind civilian Palestinians.
*Using civilian infrastructure, such as hospitals and schools, to house fighters and munitions.
*Attacking (launching rockets) amidst civilian infrastructure.
*Hoarding fuel, and food, and water so they can continue to fight while depriving their own civilians of the same.
*Preventing their own Palestinian civilians from fleeing combat areas… they have done this by barricading roads and by actually SHOOTING AT AND KILLING their own civilians so they won’t leave (and thereby expose their terrorist infrastructure to more significant attacks.

Israeli attacks have contributed to the death of innocent Palestinian civilians… but only because Hamas is COMMITTING THE WAR CRIMES noted above. It is ridiculous and disingenuous for Hamas to commit stated War Crimes then turn around and accuse Israel of committing War Crimes that are the result of Hamas’ own actions.

Per the Geneva Convention… when civilian infrastructure (such as schools or hospitals) are ILLEGALLY AND IMMORALLY used to house fighters or munitions these structures LOSE THEIR STATUS AS CIVILIAN and become LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS.

Hamas is Evil.

[jimboston]

Jesus, a page and a half arguing about trivia.

What the f*ck difference does it make whether Hamas beheads the babies, or bakes them in a pie, or feeds them to Azeri hookers?

Murder is murder. Adding gruesome methods helps sell tabloids, but it makes no difference in the end. Even if the 1,400 were given calming drugs and then euthanized by the most humane methods possible, it's still murder.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the people Hamas killed were murder. I think people are pointing that the 10,000+ (and counting) the Israeli government have killed in revenge are also murder.

1) The number 10,000 is greatly exaggerated. Though admittedly it will likely be MUCH higher than they before the fighting is done.

2) Hamas fighters (committing another war crime) don’t abide by modern standards of war and wear uniforms; since their goal (like most terrorists) is to blend in with the local civilian population when it comes time to run. This makes it nearly impossible to determine who is a fighter and who is a civilian. At the very least you have to consider any male 16yo or older to be a fighter. Videos have shown teenagers participating in the October 7th Attacks. So when you throw out number how about you break it down by age and sex so we can kinda gage which casualties are likely combatants and which may be non-combatants.

3) Israeli attacks are not revenge. Israel is using limited munitions at this point and targeting their attacks. They have much more significant munitions that could kill way way more people if their goal was simply revenge. People who make this claim are just dumb. Israel has a stated goal… eliminate Hamas. If Hamas surrenders tomorrow the Israeli campaign stops tomorrow. (Hamas has a stated goal too… their goal is to liberate Palestine from “The River to the Sea”… which means expel or kill all Jews who currently live in Israel.

4) See my last post where I explain how War works per the Geneva Convention. If you’d a follow that you will understand that any Palestinian deaths are not “murder” by Israel but actually casualties caused by the illegal and immoral acts of Hamas.

Hamas is Evil.

[HitRed]

Israel can do no wrong. - God

[bigtoughralf]

admittedly [the death toll in Gaza] will likely be MUCH higher than [10,000] before the fighting is done.

Okay, so you accept that the Israeli government is killing huge numbers of civilians.

Now, in terms of the 'how':

See my last post where I explain how War works per the Geneva Convention.

Under the Geneva Convention siege tactics and the attacking of civilian targets such as schools and hospitals are illegal, so most of the deaths the Israeli government has caused in Gaza since this fighting started have been war crimes.

If you use the logic of 'anything I do is your fault if you provoke me' then you presumably also accept that the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is NATO's fault?

[jimboston]

admittedly [the death toll in Gaza] will likely be MUCH higher than [10,000] before the fighting is done.

Okay, so you accept that the Israeli government is killing huge numbers of civilians.

No. I acknowledge that Hamas is illegally and immorally hiding behind civilian infrastructure and refusing to let civilians leave the war zone.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

I also said the death count will be higher… not the civilian death count. 100% of Hamas fighters are being identified as “civilians” by Hamas reports… because 100% of Hamas fighters don’t were uniforms or any identifying insignia.

Now, in terms of the 'how':

See my last post where I explain how War works per the Geneva Convention.

Under the Geneva Convention siege tactics and the attacking of civilian targets such as schools and hospitals are illegal, so most of the deaths the Israeli government has caused in Gaza since this fighting started have been war crimes.

Wrong. Under Geneva…

Targeting civilian infrastructure is illegal… BUT civilian infrastructure loses Geneva protections and become Legitimate War Targets when they are used by the opposing actors to house fighters and/or munitions.

It is illegal under Geneva to use civilian infrastructure to house fighters and/or munitions… so Hamas is committing THIS war crime by doing that and thereby they are making those building legitimate targets.

Hamas can’t violate Geneva Conventions and SIMULTANEOUSLY demand Israel abide by them…. yet even though Hamas is violating Geneva Israel is still abiding by the rules and only targeting legitimate target AND warning civilians in advance.

Israel is NOT preventing Palestinians from leaving Gaza. Hamas is preventing Palestinians from leaving and they are being supported in this act by Egypt. Hamas WANTS Palestinian civilian casualties because they know people like you will use these deaths as a weapon against Israel.

If you use the logic of 'anything I do is your fault if you provoke me' then you presumably also accept that the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine is NATO's fault?

No. Not even comparable.

These two situations are so different I am not going to engage in comparing them except to say…

Hamas was the initial aggressor… Hamas must be destroyed.

Russia was the initial aggressor. Russia cannot be destroyed… but we must work to make sure that Russia does not benefit from its’ aggression.

[Lonous]

Israel can do no wrong. - God

God would like to have a talk with you and give you a reminder.

Revelation 3:9
King James Version

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

[Votanic]

Hamas didn't sign the Geneva Convention. It's just an out-dated piece of paper being used to give legitimacy to those old-school entities that were around back then to sign.

Maybe it needs to be re-ratifed every 5 or 10 years. with all currently operating players saying yay' or 'nay'.

Same goes for NATO, the U.N. etc.

Again, I repeat. the only difference between a country and a terrorist organization is the 'owning' of land... and the legitmacy of any such deed will always be in question.

Same goes for religion. Scientology is no more wacked-out than any of that old-school Abrahamic bullshit. No difference between a fringe cult and a major religion but the degree of worldly power.

If some new cult showed up tomorrow cutting the tips of baby dicks. They would be such an outcry you wouldn't believe. Juadaism normalizes this bullshit to maintain separation for supposedly religious, but ultimately secular, control.

Who cares. The next holocaust (small 'h') will be NUCLEAR.

[Pack Rat]

Hamas didn't sign the Geneva Convention. It's just an out-dated piece of paper being used to give legitimacy to those old-school entities that were around back then to sign.

Maybe it needs to be re-ratifed every 5 or 10 years. with all currently operating players saying yay' or 'nay'.

Same goes for NATO, the U.N. etc.

Again, I repeat. the only difference between a country and a terrorist organization is the 'owning' of land... and the legitmacy of any such deed will always be in question.

Same goes for religion. Scientology is no more wacked-out than any of that old-school Abrahamic bullshit. No difference between a fringe cult and a major religion but the degree of worldly power.

If some new cult showed up tomorrow cutting the tips of baby dicks. They would be such an outcry you wouldn't believe. Juadaism normalizes this bullshit to maintain separation for supposedly religious, but ultimately secular, control.

Who cares. The next holocaust (small 'h') will be NUCLEAR.

Amen

[jimboston]

Hamas didn't sign the Geneva Convention. It's just an out-dated piece of paper being used to give legitimacy to those old-school entities that were around back then to sign.

Maybe it needs to be re-ratifed every 5 or 10 years. with all currently operating players saying yay' or 'nay'.

Same goes for NATO, the U.N. etc.

So then by this math there are no “rules” no “right or wrong”.
The only rule is the law of the jungle and “might makes right”.

In which case Israel should just go hog wild.

Again, I repeat. the only difference between a country and a terrorist organization is the 'owning' of land... and the legitmacy of any such deed will always be in question.

Hamas is the elected government of the Gaza Strip.
Elected by the people of Gaza the last time they were allowed to vote.

Israel has not occupied Gaza in like 15 or 17 years… I forget the exact date.

By this calculus Hamas does “own” the land of Gaza.

Hamas is BOTH a government/country AND a terrorist organization.

What makes them Terrorists are the way they operate.

Same goes for religion. Scientology is no more wacked-out than any of that old-school Abrahamic bullshit. No difference between a fringe cult and a major religion but the degree of worldly power.

If some new cult showed up tomorrow cutting the tips of baby dicks. They would be such an outcry you wouldn't believe. Juadaism normalizes this bullshit to maintain separation for supposedly religious, but ultimately secular, control.

Who cares. The next holocaust (small 'h') will be NUCLEAR.

I’m not saying I completely disagree with your points here. There is some agreement and some disagreement.
That’s a subject for another thread.

The points made about religion in regards to this war is that it doesn’t matter what you or I believe; what matters is what the people fighting this war believe.

Muslims and Jews agree with like 80%+ on religious issues and doctrine. They are killing eachother over 20%.

Different sects of Muslims kill eachother even though they only disagree on 5% or less of doctrine or details.

Catholics and Protestants killed eachother over similar levels of disagreement.

I may think the differences are silky because they all agree in the same made-up God… but I’m not the one killing or being killed so what I think doesn’t matter much there.

[saxitoxin]

Israel is NOT preventing Palestinians from leaving Gaza.

Let's see - there are six ways someone can leave Gaza. Which way would you choose, Jim: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6?

1 - By air: Israel bombed the control tower and bulldozed the runway of the only airport (Yasser Arafat Int'l Airport) a couple years ago so aircraft can't land or take-off

2 - By sea: The Israeli Navy has had a full blockade of the coast for 16 years and stops ships trying to enter or depart; the last time someone tried was 7 years ago, the ships were boarded, seized, and the passengers and crews arrested

3 - By ground by auto (via Rafah): Egypt has closed this border crossing and erected barricades across the road

4 - By ground by auto (via Erez): Israel has closed this border crossing and it's manned by armed soldiers - there are signs warning that anyone who approaches with 50 meters will be shot

5 - By ground by auto (via Kerem Shalon): Israel has closed this border crossing and it's manned by armed soldiers - there are signs warning that anyone who approaches with 50 meters will be shot

6 - By ground by foot: Israel has erected a 7-meter tall wall topped with barbed wire and mounted with remote-controlled machine guns around the entire Gaza Strip

[jimboston]

Point 1: Palestinian civilians can’t even vacate Gaza City. Hamas is forcing them to stay so they can act as a shield to limit Israeli attacks.

Point 2: Paths 2, 4, 5, and 6 are not viable as you can’t retreat in the direction of the oncoming army. The army that is attacking the Terrorist Gov’t you voted into place.

Point 3: Why won’t Egypt open the Rafa Crossing to allow refugees to seek shelter? Aren’t they all Brother Muslims?
They won’t do it because they don’t want to deal with the problem. Yet they, and MOST Muslims, will continue to decry the “Occupation” and the military actions of Israel; while they supported Hamas with money and political support for the past 15 years… helping to enable Hamas to carry out the October 7th Massacre.

NOT ONE MUSLIM COUNTRY HAS STEPPED UP AND OFFERED TO TAKE A SINGLE PALESTINIAN REFUGEE.

WHY?

Again… Hamas started this. It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

[saxitoxin]

Point 1: Palestinian civilians can’t even vacate Gaza City. Hamas is forcing them to stay so they can act as a shield to limit Israeli attacks.

Fact Check: False - as of last week, 80% of residents of Gaza City have left

An estimated 800,000 Palestinians have fled south from northern Gaza following Israeli evacuation orders, but hundreds of thousands remain.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas ... 708b5310dd

It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

It could also all be over tomorrow if Israel surrendered and Netanyahu reported to the International Criminal Court in The Hague for pre-trial processing.

[Votanic]

Again… Hamas started this. It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

No they didn't.
You keep drawing imaginary lines in the sand and saying what happened before doesn't count.
I'm fine, going all the way back to ancient times about this, because holy books (historical and mythological)are still treated as Gospel Truths (literally) in Pal-rael.

Even if you choose to ignore all that, you still need to at least go as far back as when the concept of Israel was being negotiated with the British...

But even that really isn't fair, because that is only when the Jews re-entered the picture at all, after being mostly absent for centuries.
Why be so Judeo-centric in the first place?
The Palestinians have been there all along.
Other non-Jewish peoples (Caananites, Philestines) have been in that area just as long. Pal-rael was never solely a homeland for the Jews before. Why should it be now?

And stop acting like Gaza and the rest of Palrael are equal in size or in value. Gaza is just a tiny concentration camp.

[Lonous]

Again… Hamas started this. It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

No they didn't.
You keep drawing imaginary lines in the sand and saying what happened before doesn't count.

No Votanic, time only works that way for other people, lesser people like you and I.
Time doesn't affect Jim like it does us.

The fact that Jewish terrorists were committing acts a century ago in that area doesn't matter.


and the fact that the driving force behind the push for the creation of Israel came during the first world war by the Rothchilds, doesn't matter.


The first hand accounts and testimonies from the men that attacked the Palestinians in 1948, laughing about acts of rape and mass murder? Doesn't matter.
https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/stat ... 9274887572

And while it may be amusing that the people behind those atrocities in 1948 tried the same technique of getting celebrities to befriend and endorse them, and that attempt failed even in their circles, that too doesn't matter.


Oh sure, you might think you have something significant with video from just back in September, showing Netayahu addressing an audience and bragging that he was about to transform the middle east and that he would not allow the Palestinians to be in a position to veto his plans. That.. doesn't...matter.
https://twitter.com/PropagandaUse/statu ... 0686066726

Time began on October 7th 2023, and there will be no success in trying to convince greater beings otherwise.

[HitRed]

Israel can do no wrong. - God

[bigtoughralf]

I bet if jim spills his cereal tomorrow it'll somehow be Hamas's fault.

[Pack Rat]

Again… Hamas started this. It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

No they didn't.
You keep drawing imaginary lines in the sand and saying what happened before doesn't count.

No Votanic, time only works that way for other people, lesser people like you and I.
Time doesn't affect Jim like it does us.

The fact that Jewish terrorists were committing acts a century ago in that area doesn't matter.


and the fact that the driving force behind the push for the creation of Israel came during the first world war by the Rothchilds, doesn't matter.


The first hand accounts and testimonies from the men that attacked the Palestinians in 1948, laughing about acts of rape and mass murder? Doesn't matter.
https://twitter.com/jakeshieldsajj/stat ... 9274887572

And while it may be amusing that the people behind those atrocities in 1948 tried the same technique of getting celebrities to befriend and endorse them, and that attempt failed even in their circles, that too doesn't matter.


Oh sure, you might think you have something significant with video from just back in September, showing Netayahu addressing an audience and bragging that he was about to transform the middle east and that he would not allow the Palestinians to be in a position to veto his plans. That.. doesn't...matter.
https://twitter.com/PropagandaUse/statu ... 0686066726

Time began on October 7th 2023, and there will be no success in trying to convince greater beings otherwise.

War for independence can be ugly for all involved.

Hamas is not a government, its a ideology. How do you wipe out ideology?

[Lonous]

Read some history on different methods, Hitler has quite a few things written about him and his attempt at it.

[saxitoxin]

Israel can do no wrong. - God

But Israel means the Church of Jesus Christ, not the State of Israel.

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
-Romans 9:6-8

The capital of France is not Paris.

[jimboston]

Again… Hamas started this. It could all be over tomorrow if Hamas fighters and their leaders surrendered and returned the hostages.

No they didn't.
You keep drawing imaginary lines in the sand and saying what happened before doesn't count.
I'm fine, going all the way back to ancient times about this, because holy books (historical and mythological)are still treated as Gospel Truths (literally) in Pal-rael.

Even if you choose to ignore all that, you still need to at least go as far back as when the concept of Israel was being negotiated with the British...

But even that really isn't fair, because that is only when the Jews re-entered the picture at all, after being mostly absent for centuries.
Why be so Judeo-centric in the first place?
The Palestinians have been there all along.
Other non-Jewish peoples (Caananites, Philestines) have been in that area just as long. Pal-rael was never solely a homeland for the Jews before. Why should it be now?

And stop acting like Gaza and the rest of Palrael are equal in size or in value. Gaza is just a tiny concentration camp.

If you think there were no Jewish people living in the land now called Israel during the British occupation you’d be wrong. Jews have continuously lived in the Holy Land for Thousands of years.

Also I never talked about the size of Gaza.

Also Gaza is Not a Concentration Camp. It was governed by Hamas for the last 15+ years. During that time they took all the aid provided and poured it into making weapons and digging tunnels… instead of using it to better the lives of the Palestinian people.

You’ve been brainwashed dude.

Provide some useful and correct facts or be ignored.

[jimboston]

Saxi… come up with something new.

This war will end with the destruction of Hamas and a lot of Palestinian dead.
This is entirely the fault of Hamas.

I have nothing more to say unless you provide something new.

[saxitoxin]

If you think there were no Jewish people living in the land now called Israel during the British occupation you’d be wrong. Jews have continuously lived in the Holy Land for Thousands of years.

Provide some useful and correct facts or be ignored.

Done.

Year: 1517
Population of Jews in Israel/Palestine: 2%
Population of Non-Jews in Israel/Palestine: 98%

1881 - Start of the Zionist Immigration from Europe

Year: 1882
Population of Jews in Israel/Palestine: 8%
Population of Non-Jews in Israel/Palestine: 92%

Year: 1931
Population of Jews in Israel/Palestine: 17%
Population of Non-Jews in Israel/Palestine: 83%

1948 - The Nakba (Zionist ethnic cleansing of Arabs)

Year: 1950
Population of Jews in Israel/Palestine: 88%
Population of Non-Jews in Israel/Palestine: 12%

Source: Judaism

[jimboston]

So all the Jewish people living in Israel RIGHT NOW should do what?

Leave? Kill themselves?

LOL

At some point you just have to accept things as a fait accompli.

The Jews aren’t leaving Israel.

Americans in the USA aren’t “giving all the land back” to “native” Americans.
(Whatever “native: Americans are… the phrase has no meaning.)

Russia is trying to annex Ukraine. Ukrainians have a right to object to this annexation.
Is Russians are still occupying Crimea in 75years I’ll vote to let them keep it.

Deal with reality.

Jewish people and Muslims both were living in the “Holy Land” prior to 1948.
Maybe the Brits were wrong to designate a portion of land to be a “Jewish Homeland”.
Maybe they were right, but should have partitioned things differently.

It’s done.