Israel

[bigtoughralf]

US vetoes otherwise unanimous UN Security Council motion for ceasefire in the Gaza Genocide, enabling the Israeli government's atrocities against civilians to continue. Human Rights Watch states the US Government is 'complicit in war crimes':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-m ... t-67653615

[Pack Rat]

The biggest threat to Gazan Palestinians is Hamas.

You reap what you sow.

[jusplay4fun]

My points about the HAMAS Charter has largely been ignored. I have re-read the Discussion of it Nov 10-12 in this thread and see NO refutation. The discussion spiraled (mostly) downward about other tangentially related topics. (I posted the relevant parts of the Hamas charter below, for those who are interested.)

I have made three points, again with no apparent refutation:

1) The Hamas Charter calls for jihad against Israel and the destruction of Israel. Their modification in 2017, if it can be called that, apparently did not deter them from targeting and attacking civilians (women and children included on October 7, 2023).

2) The attack on October 7 was intentionally at civilians. HAMAS fighters killed women and children, raped women, and took civilians to use as barter or bargaining "chips" to gain freedom of Palestinian jailed in Israel.

3) HAMAS has used women and children as human shields to protect their a) fighters, b) leaders, and c) weapons. They also hide these 3 assets near (and under) hospitals and schools to maximize bad publicity for Israel.

Let me add:

4) Nearly all the violence in the USA has occurred done by supporters of HAMAS and Gaza against Jews.

[There was one story of allegations of a gun attack on 3 Palestinian young men who are college students. I am not aware that the alleged attacker is Jewish. (I think the attack happened in Vermont.)]

5) HAMAS has NOT allowed free elections since they were elected in Gaza.

No new elections have been held since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip in 2007.

The best course of action for Gaza is to elect a government who will honestly negotiate for peace and a peaceful co-existence with Israel. HAMAS has only shown constant belligerence toward Israel, with the result of retaliation by the Israeli military (IDF). As already mentioned, this retaliation is the cause of many deaths of civilians in Gaza.

Hamas has blocked that path by failing to allow new elections in some 16 years. That is NOT a democracy. That is not fair to the residents of Gaza. This has allowed violence to continue, resulting in deaths of too many Jews and Palestinians. This is not a game (as someone alleged and/or insinuated); this is death of too many innocent civilians on BOTH sides.

6) Israel has a right to defend itself. HAMAS continues to hide behind their women and children, putting them in the line of fire and the result is TOO many Palestinian casualties.

7) Thus, I agree with Rat Pack: Hamas reaps what they sow.

also:
8 ) saxi posted a story of a few Jewish who are anti-Zionist. That should be NO SURPRISE. There is the maxim that when two Jews meet to have a discussion (mostly religion and politics) that there are at least three opinions. Jews rarely show unanimity on any issue. Thus that point is thus moot.

Lastly, for now:
9) There was testimony of 3 university Presidents before Congress earlier this week and they all failed to condemn anti-Jewish rhetoric and threats of violence against Jewish students.

White House condemns university presidents after contentious congressional hearing on antisemitism
The presidents of Harvard University, the University of Pennsylvania and MIT testified before Congress amid an increase in antisemitism on college campuses.

Dec. 6, 2023, 4:55 PM EST / Updated Dec. 7, 2023, 8:16 AM EST
By Kyla Guilfoil

The White House condemned the presidents of three top universities Wednesday after they appeared to sidestep questions at a congressional hearing about whether students’ calling for the genocide of Jews violates their schools’ codes of conduct.

“It’s unbelievable that this needs to be said: calls for genocide are monstrous and antithetical to everything we represent as a country. Any statements that advocate for the systematic murder of Jews are dangerous and revolting — and we should all stand firmly against them, on the side of human dignity and the most basic values that unite us as Americans,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said in a statement Wednesday.

His statement came in response to congressional testimony Tuesday from Claudine Gay of Harvard University, Elizabeth Magill of the University of Pennsylvania and Sally Kornbluth of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. At a House Education and the Workforce Committee hearing about antisemitism on college campuses, they said there has been a sharp rise in anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim incidents at their campuses since Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7. They condemned antisemitism and Islamophobia broadly and said they were taking steps to address the issue.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-condemns-university-presidents-contentious-congressional-h-rcna128373

The lack of condemnation is troubling to me and is apparently of concern to President Biden and his administration. These 3 university presidents fail to understand that Free Speech does have limitations. Those like minded people are quick to condemn verbal attacks against: 1) other leftists; 2) gays and lesbians; 3) trans students; 4) blacks; and 5) other minorities. Apparently, to them, Jewish students on their campuses do not deserve a similar level of protection and concern.

I have made my point; NOW the two claim HUMOR. RIGHT. More Lies.

When you cannot beat them with the facts, fall back on the "I was only joking" excuse. jimb has tried this before, so I should not be surprised.

End of that discussion.

Let's now get back to the main discussion of this thread, not me, but the topic of this thread: Israel (and their war against Hamas).

And they fail to refute the main points I quoted on the Hamas Charter.

The Hamas Covenant or Hamas Charter, formally known in English as the Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement, was originally issued on 18 August 1988 and outlines the founding identity, stand, and aims of Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement).[1] A new charter was issued by Hamas leader Khaled Mashal on 1 May 2017 in Doha.[2]

The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[4][5] It emphasizes the importance of jihad, stating in article 13,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter

MORE:

THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS

=======================================



The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August

18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

(Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

Covenant:



Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)



On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

btw: FAS = Federation of American Scientists

Striving For A Safer World Since 1945.
FAS envisions a world where cutting-edge science, technology, ideas and talent are deployed to solve the biggest challenges of our time. We embed science, technology, innovation, and experience into government and public discourse in order to build a healthy, safe, prosperous and equitable society.

[jusplay4fun]

US vetoes otherwise unanimous UN Security Council motion for ceasefire in the Gaza Genocide, enabling the Israeli government's atrocities against civilians to continue. Human Rights Watch states the US Government is 'complicit in war crimes':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-m ... t-67653615

Not surprisingly, soft-ralph distorts his evidence cited.

1) It was not an "otherwise unanimous" as the UK abstained, so his statement is false and misleading. Please read his cited source.

2) The cited article did not mention the organization Human Rights Watch, Again, more misleading information is provided by small-minded-ralph.

About the only thing ralph is improving on is to provide obfuscation, like his hero saxi.

[bigtoughralf]

It was not an "otherwise unanimous" as the UK abstained, so his statement is false and misleading. Please read his cited source.

Of the 15 eligible voters: 13 supported the motion; 1 (USA) opposed the motion; and 1 (UK) didn't commit a vote. So yes, voters other than the USA all supported the motion.

Even UN motions on things like condemnation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine or proposing no-fly zones over Syria didn't receive this level of blanket and unanimous support. The whole world agrees on stopping genocide - except USA and Israel!

The cited article did not mention the organization Human Rights Watch

It's a live update feed. Granted it has now had several updates added about the Israeli government's latest atrocities, but you don't have to scroll very far to find the update about Human Rights Watch that I mentioned.

Judging by the length of your average copy-paste post I took you for an avid reader. Was I wrong??

[jusplay4fun]

It was not an "otherwise unanimous" as the UK abstained, so his statement is false and misleading. Please read his cited source.

Of the 15 eligible voters: 13 supported the motion; 1 (USA) opposed the motion; and 1 (UK) didn't commit a vote. So yes, voters other than the USA all supported the motion.

Even UN motions on things like condemnation of Russia's invasion of Ukraine or proposing no-fly zones over Syria didn't receive this level of blanket and unanimous support. The whole world agrees on stopping genocide - except USA and Israel!

The cited article did not mention the organization Human Rights Watch

It's a live update feed. Granted it has now had several updates added about the Israeli government's latest atrocities, but you don't have to scroll very far to find the update about Human Rights Watch that I mentioned.

Judging by the length of your average copy-paste post I took you for an avid reader. Was I wrong??

I read the entire article. Again you LIE. PERIOD.

If you want to cite evidence, offer it. Do not expect readers to chase that information by scrolling through numerous OTHER articles to try to make your point.

You implied that only the US opposed the UN Resolution. Again, NOT true, as your UK Delegate voted to abstain.

This was at the VERY BOTTOM as I scrolled through the ENTIRE cited URL and LINKS looking for ralph's citation:

Posted at 17:01 8 Dec17:01 8 Dec
A recap of what we've just heard at the UN

(...)

The US called the resolution "imbalanced" and "divorced from reality," adding that it did not include language that they had requested, including a clear condemnation of Hamas' 7 October attacks on Israeli civilians. They also reiterated a call for a two-state solution as the only way to achieve lasting peace in the region.
The UK also echoed the US, saying it could not vote in favour of a resolution that does not condemn "the atrocities Hamas committed".

NOTE that the UK discusses "the atrocities Hamas committed." It seems that ralph did not read it or chose to conveniently disregard it in order to to try to further his false narrative.

Notice too that ralph TOTALLY disregarded my entire line of reasoning as to why Hamas should not be in charge as leaders of Gaza. He apparently cannot refute ANY of what I stated in the post.

I appreciate cogent, lucid, and succinct arguments. ralph apparently cannot even offer a SIMPLE argument. I refuse to go hunt for evidence to support your point. You should present it yourself.

[bigtoughralf]

I read the entire article.

You obviously didn't, as the bit I referenced was on the front page when I posted the link and was still on the front page when I looked again this morning.

You implied that only the US opposed the UN Resolution. Again, NOT true

True, and explicitly stated in both the article and in your own post.

Is there another language we could speak that you'd find it a little easier to converse in?

[HitRed]

December 9, 23 Adoration

Message from Jesus

I speak now for time is short. My Coming is it hand. I await the Father’s order to enter the world for the last time to gather all those who are mine and bring them home with me. I say to you, who follow other gods, woe to you. My will be done on earth as it is in heaven and all shall return to me on the last day. Come without fail. Come see the Lord as He is good, and holy, and righteous is He. Come with hearts open ready to receive the One who made you.

[jusplay4fun]

I read the entire article.

You obviously didn't, as the bit I referenced was on the front page when I posted the link and was still on the front page when I looked again this morning.

You implied that only the US opposed the UN Resolution. Again, NOT true

True, and explicitly stated in both the article and in your own post.

Is there another language we could speak that you'd find it a little easier to converse in?

THE Article, the printed word, NOT the link down the END of the page, down past some 12-15 OTHER posts. IDIOT.

[bigtoughralf]

Sounds like the closest you're going to get to admitting you've now realised my link contained all the information I said it did.

To recap:

• Whole world except USA wants to stop Gaza genocide
• Human Rights Watch tells USA government it's complicit in war crimes

[Pack Rat]

Unfortunately for the Gazan Palestinians, they have to pay for the sins of Hamas.

Just like the civilians of Germany and Japan, who helped get the government they wanted and waved their silly flags when things were going great in the 1930s and 40s....

Now you want Israel to stop? Hamas is a fucking terrorist organization who love raping girls to death! What the f*ck did they think was going to happened after the slaughter of October 7th....

[Votanic]

Good grief, are those dusty devils still kicking it up?
My, my, those biblical tribal types sure do know how to raise holy hell in the holy land.

...but anyway, what I'm concerned about is this thread has already exceeded the length of the OT Intro thread in only around 1% of the time.
How much longer before even that banana thread isn't safe from being surpassed in near-total (but only pseudo-epic) interminability?

[HitRed]

Original post on Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:52 am

They [Israel] need to look to me and I will make their enemies my footstool. - God

[Pack Rat]

Original post on Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:52 am

They [Israel] need to look to me and I will make their enemies my footstool. - God

Footstool?

Nazis made lampshades of human skin....what are these footstool made of?

[HitRed]

December 10, 23

Peace to you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I have sent you the grace necessary to do what I command you to do. I am the Lord and King of all the earth and heaven above. I come with grace and splendor to all who turn to me. I come with much mercy and hope for those who turn to me and trust in my care for them. I call all back to me their Lord and their God, the one true God. Grace and peace go with you.

[bigtoughralf]

Israeli government makes Palestinian detainees strip down to underwear and perform staged 'surrender' in front of multiple cameras, for videos filmed outside UN school:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67675407

The Red Cross has repeated pleas for the Israeli government to treat detainees in accordance with international law.

[Pack Rat]

Israeli government makes Palestinian detainees strip down to underwear and perform staged 'surrender' in front of multiple cameras, for videos filmed outside UN school:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67675407

The Red Cross has repeated pleas for the Israeli government to treat detainees in accordance with international law.

These poor detainees, caught without uniforms fighting against uniformed IDF. Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

[bigtoughralf]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

[Pack Rat]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

Combatants have to wear military uniforms, as to identify them as combatants from civilians. To strip these terrorists of civilian clothing is nothing compared to being shot as saboteurs/terrorists.

This is a full fledged war against terrorism. Hamas and their supporters are getting their just desserts for October 7th.

You reap what you sow.

[Votanic]

The Red Cross?!? Talk about a nefarious INGO that has spouting sanctamonius (and duplicitious) BS for nigh over a century now.
If the Red Cross was legit, it would just nuke* Pal-rael and then turn the whole region into an International Peace Park, devoted to the the single-minded belief that it should never happen again.., unless absolutely necessary.

Honestly, If the Red Cross pushes the button, it will replenish the humanitarian legitimacy** that nuclear war lost after the 'Anti-nuke' smear campaign of the 1980s. ...and if the whole thing does somehow go wrong (which I seriously doubt), everybody else will be off the hook. That's called a 'Win-Win'.

*Yes, smarty-pants, I know the Red Cross probably doesn't have their own nuclear weapons... but one of those mega-corporation countries like USChinaIndiaIranRussia could 'gift' them the missiles. That's the claimed reason those entities even have 'International Aid': To help.

** Ironic I know, considering the Red Cross's own shady past, but that's how politics works. It's not the true truth that counts, only the best truth.

[bigtoughralf]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

This is a full fledged war against terrorism. Hamas and their supporters are getting their just desserts for October 7th.

4-5000 children have been killed by the IDF so far, a figure which the Biden administration think is likely an underestimate given how many civilians are yet to be pulled from the rubble of their homes.

Just to confirm: you think that is acceptable?

[Pack Rat]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

This is a full fledged war against terrorism. Hamas and their supporters are getting their just desserts for October 7th.

4-5000 children have been killed by the IDF so far, a figure which the Biden administration think is likely an underestimate given how many civilians are yet to be pulled from the rubble of their homes.

Just to confirm: you think that is acceptable?

Of course any civilian casualties is horrible. But, just like the mass bombing of Germany and Japan caused millions of civilian deaths, these same civilians were supporting their government and military during their campaign of terror.

You reap what you sow....followed by crocodile tears

[bigtoughralf]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

This is a full fledged war against terrorism. Hamas and their supporters are getting their just desserts for October 7th.

4-5000 children have been killed by the IDF so far, a figure which the Biden administration think is likely an underestimate given how many civilians are yet to be pulled from the rubble of their homes.

Just to confirm: you think that is acceptable?

Of course any civilian casualties is horrible. But, just like the mass bombing of Germany and Japan caused millions of civilian deaths, these same civilians were supporting their government and military during their campaign of terror.

You reap what you sow....followed by crocodile tears

It's a simple yes/no question. Do you think the IDF killing 4-5000 children so far during its ongoing assault on Gaza is acceptable?

If your last response was actually intended as an answer to my question, and not an attempt to duck the question, then it would appear your answer is 'yes it is acceptable because those 5000 children were Hamas supporters and enablers'. But I'll let you confirm that.

[Votanic]

A Tale of the Triumph of Goodness.

Two (or more) camps of Moral Absolutists lock horns on the field of battle and debate.

One shall gain the upper hand... through superior Rightous FORCE!, (of course).
Victorius (and Blessed), their word shall be The Law Of The Land!, just as it was born from the Divine*, and delivered by the Wise*.

...and as for the loser(s), now branded with Evil (The Mark of Cain, perhaps?) ...wretched shall be their fate, and agonizing their punishment.

* Just as Divinity and Wisdom were first truly and correctly envisioned by the Victoriously and Absolutely Rightous themselves.

[Dukasaur]

Poor detainees who rape and killed innocent civilians, boo-hoo. Poor detainees are quite lucky! They could of been shoved up against a wall and shot!

Interesting. So what do you think should be done with any IDF soldiers that Hamas capture, given the IDF have now killed 10x the number of civilians that Hamas have during the ongoing conflict?

This is a full fledged war against terrorism. Hamas and their supporters are getting their just desserts for October 7th.

4-5000 children have been killed by the IDF so far, a figure which the Biden administration think is likely an underestimate given how many civilians are yet to be pulled from the rubble of their homes.

Just to confirm: you think that is acceptable?

Of course any civilian casualties is horrible. But, just like the mass bombing of Germany and Japan caused millions of civilian deaths, these same civilians were supporting their government and military during their campaign of terror.

You reap what you sow....followed by crocodile tears

It's a simple yes/no question. Do you think the IDF killing 4-5000 children so far during its ongoing assault on Gaza is acceptable?

If your last response was actually intended as an answer to my question, and not an attempt to duck the question, then it would appear your answer is 'yes it is acceptable because those 5000 children were Hamas supporters and enablers'. But I'll let you confirm that.

How many tears have you shed for the innocent children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Simple fact is, when you're the citizen of a country ruled by an evil junta that invades other countries, you make come to a bad end through no fault of your own. It's unfortunate that innocents are suffering, but the alternative -- letting their evil rulers continue in power -- is far worse.