Israel

[saxitoxin]

Yemen just sank a Norwegian cargo ship after it refused to confirm it was not delivering goods to Israel.

Due to this, and Yemen's previous capture of two Israeli vessels, there is now no maritime traffic transiting the Red Sea destined for Israel, through which 50% of its imports and exports pass.

Only Yemen stands tall.

[saxitoxin]

Biden just made a surprise announcement that his father - thought to be dead - is not only alive but is living in Israel and survived the October 7 attack.

https://twitter.com/Sprinter00001/statu ... nQLhA&s=19

This means the elder Biden is 112 years old.

[Pack Rat]

Biden just made a surprise announcement that his father - thought to be dead - is not only alive but is living in Israel and survived the October 7 attack.

https://twitter.com/Sprinter00001/statu ... nQLhA&s=19

This means the elder Biden is 112 years old.

Saxi, we can always count on you for providing alternative facts. Absurdity is your motto.

[Votanic]

Yemen just sank a Norwegian cargo ship after it refused to confirm it was not delivering goods to Israel.

Due to this, and Yemen's previous capture of two Israeli vessels, there is now no maritime traffic transiting the Red Sea destined for Israel, through which 50% of its imports and exports pass.

Only Yemen stands tall.

Things are SNOWBALLING out of control!!!
Only nuclear war possesses the force necessary to stop people from doing things... bad things.

Won't some benevolent world leaderish type push the button?... now, before it's too late.

[Pack Rat]

Votanic, put the bomb down and walk away...

[Votanic]

Votanic, put the bomb down and walk away...

Yes! That is classic cinema at its finest.
Slim Pickens giving out a wild '"Yahooo' and taming that buckin' bronco of an H-bomb as he rides off...
NOT into a mere sunset, but rather into a man-made spectacle, literally as hot and bright as any old sunset any day!!

Probably the last time America was truly great (until MAGA, of course)...
Too bad those dang, treacherous, shifty-eyed, Viet-kong infiltrated the CIA and dosed everyone with LSD...
Then this happened:

[Pack Rat]

Votanic, put the bomb down and walk away...

Yes! That is classic cinema at its finest.
Slim Pickens giving out a wild '"Yahooo' and taming that buckin' bronco of an H-bomb as he rides off...
NOT into a mere sunset, but rather into a man-made spectacle, literally as hot and bright as any old sunset any day!!

Probably the last time America was truly great (until MAGA, of course)...
Too bad those dang, treacherous, shifty-eyed, Viet-kong infiltrated the CIA and dosed everyone with LSD...
Then this happened:

Let's not give LSD a bad name. It really is medicine for the brain, unless you are a deprived psychotic who likes to talk to inanimate objects.

[bigtoughralf]

US vetoes otherwise unanimous UN Security Council motion for ceasefire in the Gaza Genocide, enabling the Israeli government's atrocities against civilians to continue. Human Rights Watch states the US Government is 'complicit in war crimes':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-m ... t-67653615

The UN General Assembly has just overwhelmingly voted that Israel should immediately cease its 'indiscriminate bombing' (Biden's words) of Gaza:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-12-12/

The world stands against the Israeli government.

[bigtoughralf]

How many tears have you shed for the innocent children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

I'm pretty certain I've posted in here before saying I think the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was both unnecessary and also a massive war crime.

It's nice to see how overwhelmingly supportive OT is of using civilian massacres as a war tactic though. You guys would fit in well with the hordes of Genghis Khan, or the Gestapo.

[jusplay4fun]

How many tears have you shed for the innocent children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

I'm pretty certain I've posted in here before saying I think the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was both unnecessary and also a massive war crime.

It's nice to see how overwhelmingly supportive OT is of using civilian massacres as a war tactic though. You guys would fit in well with the hordes of Genghis Khan, or the Gestapo.

Wrong again, Ralph. The dropping of two A-Bombs actually SAVED LIVES, including members of my family (in all likelihood). The Japanese would have fought to the death (as they did on many Pacific islands) to defend their Homeland. Read some history, Ralph. There were estimates of AT LEAST 2 million Japanese civilians and AT LEAST 500,000 American soldiers and Marines to take and capture Japan.

I have read lots recently about this, including 3 books on History, ralph. Careful, ralph, your ignorance is showing AGAIN.

Here is one source:

The U.S. Sixth Army, which would invade and occupy Kyushu, estimated 124,935 U.S. battle casualties, including 25,000 dead, plus 269,000 non-battle casualties (disease, accident, etc.) for Kyushu alone. The JCS came up with an estimate that a 90-day campaign on Kyushu would cost 156-175,000 battle casualties, with 38,000 killed in action. By late July, the JCS was forecasting 500,000 casualties at the high end and 100,000 at the low end. In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and 5 to 10 million Japanese dead. (Given that the initial Downfall plan called for 1,792,700 troops to go ashore in Japan, this estimate is indeed most sobering, and suggests many more troops than planned would need to be fed into a meat grinder). Other estimates in the U.S. government indicated U.S. deaths at 500,000 to 1 million. Which of these and other estimates would be the most accurate has been hotly debated over the years (and are caught up in the debate about whether the atomic bomb should have been used), and I’m not going to solve it. But it is clear that the cost of invading Japan would have been staggering for both the U.S. and the Japanese.

https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/leadership/director/directors-corner/h-grams/h-gram-057/h-057-1.html#:~:text=By%20late%20July%2C%20the%20JCS,to%2010%20million%20Japanese%20dead.

one more:

The Japanese planned an all-out defense of Kyūshū, with little left in reserve for any subsequent defense operations. Casualty predictions varied widely, but were extremely high. Depending on the degree to which Japanese civilians would have resisted the invasion, estimates ran up into the millions for Allied casualties.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

and one more source, from UK
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-proposed-invasion-of-japan

If ralph wants to limit civilian deaths, he would understand the importance of the use of the Atomic Bombs to end the war (WW2) against Japan to avoid many Japanese CIVILIAN casualties.

[bigtoughralf]

Outside of Hollywood propaganda movies and US school textbooks it's pretty widely accepted that it was the USSR turning on Japan that prompted them to surrender, not the nuclear bombing.

Even your desperate trawling of bottom-of-the-barrel sources such as a confederation of US military museums hasn't actually turned up any that endorse your claim the bombings caused Japan to surrender. Maybe you should spend a little time screening the content of your next copy-paste-a-thon before sharing it. A high word count is not the same thing as a persuasive argument, after all.

[saxitoxin]

JP4F's thesis that the atom bombing saved lives is based on the binary fiction that, if no atomic weapons had been used, the U.S. would have been required to invade the home islands.

Nothing is further from the truth.

The U.S. always had the option of simply quitting the war. The Japanese navy was nonexistent, Japan had lost all her territories, the Army was relegated to a home defense force, there was no industry left, the population was completely demoralized, and her allies were all defeated and occupied. Best estimates were it would be 25 years before Japan could pose a threat and that was assuming the Soviets didn't attack, there wasn't a revolution, or Japan didn't simply change its foreign policy.

The atom bombings were partly a science experiment and partly the kick off event to Truman's 1948 election campaign. They had no military purpose.

[HitRed]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

[jusplay4fun]

Outside of Hollywood propaganda movies and US school textbooks it's pretty widely accepted that it was the USSR turning on Japan that prompted them to surrender, not the nuclear bombing.

Even your desperate trawling of bottom-of-the-barrel sources such as a confederation of US military museums hasn't actually turned up any that endorse your claim the bombings caused Japan to surrender. Maybe you should spend a little time screening the content of your next copy-paste-a-thon before sharing it. A high word count is not the same thing as a persuasive argument, after all.

A high word count? You have NOT refuted my Hamas post in another thread and maybe that was TOO LONG for Ralph to read. I quoted a UK source, but I see you ignored that, too.

saxi TRIES to come to the aid of his weak so-called “wingman” to little avail.

Weak arguments and more false narratives offered by Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum, and they offer impotent arguments.

[Votanic]

Uh hello??

Japan started it, so they deserved it... duh. "How do you like them Rising Suns, bucko!"

...and also, just like in Palrael... religion lurked beneath the surface as a root-cause of their downfall.

Shintoistic Emperor Worship is a freaky scene. Just say 'No!'

[saxitoxin]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

[HitRed]

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the US.

Wake Island

[saxitoxin]

Wake Island???

Weren't there only like 1,000 Japanese troops left on the island by the time it surrendered? The population was zero before the war and it's still zero today.

Doing the math, if the U.S. had eight battleships left in August 1945 and there were 1,000 Japanese left on Wake Island:

- 8 ships x 9 16" guns per ship = 72 16-inch guns
- If each gun fired 50 shells per hour for eight hours per day,
- Within one day you would have put nearly 30,000 16" shells on Wake Island

If it took 30, 16-inch shells to kill a single Japanese soldier, you would have cleared the island in a day. If the U.S. decided to just quit the war in 1945 and withdraw to the colonies, as its last act it could have taken Wake without requiring a single atom bomb.

[Votanic]

Wake Island???

Weren't there only like 1,000 Japanese troops left on the island by the time it surrendered? The population was zero before the war and it's still zero today.

Doing the math, if the U.S. had eight battleships left in August 1945 and there were 1,000 Japanese left on Wake Island:

- 8 ships x 9 16" guns per ship = 72 16-inch guns
- If each gun fired 50 shells per hour for eight hours per day,
- Within one day you would have put nearly 30,000 16" shells on Wake Island

If it took 30, 16-inch shells to kill a single Japanese soldier, you would have cleared the island in a day. If the U.S. decided to just quit the war in 1945 and withdraw to the colonies, as its last act it could have taken Wake without requiring a single atom bomb.

No atom bomb(s)?? Sounds more like 'Woke' Island... right?

[Pack Rat]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

That's some twisted logic Saxi.

[jusplay4fun]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

That's some twisted logic Saxi.

Well stated, to Rat pack, and HitRed, too.

[saxitoxin]

Outside of Hollywood propaganda movies and US school textbooks it's pretty widely accepted that it was the USSR turning on Japan that prompted them to surrender, not the nuclear bombing.

Even your desperate trawling of bottom-of-the-barrel sources such as a confederation of US military museums hasn't actually turned up any that endorse your claim the bombings caused Japan to surrender. Maybe you should spend a little time screening the content of your next copy-paste-a-thon before sharing it. A high word count is not the same thing as a persuasive argument, after all.

well stated, ralph

[bigtoughralf]

Outside of Hollywood propaganda movies and US school textbooks it's pretty widely accepted that it was the USSR turning on Japan that prompted them to surrender, not the nuclear bombing.

Even your desperate trawling of bottom-of-the-barrel sources such as a confederation of US military museums hasn't actually turned up any that endorse your claim the bombings caused Japan to surrender. Maybe you should spend a little time screening the content of your next copy-paste-a-thon before sharing it. A high word count is not the same thing as a persuasive argument, after all.

A high word count? You have NOT refuted my Hamas post in another thread

jp4 tactic #1 - bombard people with copy-pastes
jp4 tactic #2 - change the subject entirely
jp4 tactic #3 - descend into random insults and ad hominem

Not bad jp, you've managed to run through your entire book of tricks in just two posts. Maybe you're getting better at being concise!

[saxitoxin]

More Palestinians have now been killed by the Israelis than Bengalis were killed by Pakistan when Joan Baez wrote what is generally believed to be the greatest anti-genocide anthem ever.

[Dukasaur]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

That's some twisted logic Saxi.

Not really. The Allies' insistence on "unconditional surrender" as the only possible outcome of the war was just an expression of their hubris. A negotiated end to the war would have saved lives and left the world less broken.