Israel

[HitRed]

Counterfactual history can be anything you want it to be.

[Pack Rat]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

That's some twisted logic Saxi.

Not really. The Allies' insistence on "unconditional surrender" as the only possible outcome of the war was just an expression of their hubris. A negotiated end to the war would have saved lives and left the world less broken.

Dukasaur, there was no other way. The fascist regimes of Germany and Japan had to be utterly destroyed and sadly the civilians had to suffer immensely. The fascist governments were given the terms and only after Hitler died and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did they consent to surrender.

We (USA) helped rebuild a better Germany and Japan. Those same suffering civilians now have democracy and a strong economy that benefits both the Germans (West Germany) and Japan.

The murderous Japanese and German regimes had what was coming to them during the aggression they started with total disregard to civilian populations.

Leaving these fascists in control would of made the world less stable and the innocents to suffer more.

You reap what you sow.

[bigtoughralf]

Japan's national Diet, which has been in place since the 1800s, has an elected lower and upper house that followed the same model as the UK's houses of Parliament until after WW2, when it adopted the exact same model as the US government.

Pack Rat thinks people living under a government like that deserve to be exterminated in a nuclear holocaust in order to save the rest of the world.

Interesting.

[Dukasaur]

"Japan had lost all her territories"

Japan in 1945 still control many areas in the Pacific and huge areas of the mainland.

According to a report submitted by the Japanese Headquarters, there were in the China Theatre (excluding Manchuria), Indochina north of the 16th parallel, and Formosa over 1,385,000 Japanese troops and over half a million Japanese civilians.

Even in their weakened state the Japanese were brutal to the populations they still controlled. The war needed to end to stop the bloodletting.

I should clarify - Japan lost all her territories it had captured from the U.S. By August 1945, the U.S. had retaken the Philippines, Guam, Samoa, Kisku, and Attu without use of atom bombs.

I don't really mind if Japan kept everything else. China was the problem of the Chinese. Vietnam of France. Indonesia of the Netherlands. Korea of the Koreans. None our concern.

Had the U.S. fought Japan to a respectable, conditional peace the communists would probably not have taken over China, or - if they did - Japan would have served as an Asiatic bulwark, allowing the U.S. to stay out of Korea and Vietnam while still benefitting from Soviet and Chicom containment. If the world had a powerful Japan under a strong, constitutional Yamato monarchy today, it would be a safer and more stable place.

That's some twisted logic Saxi.

Not really. The Allies' insistence on "unconditional surrender" as the only possible outcome of the war was just an expression of their hubris. A negotiated end to the war would have saved lives and left the world less broken.

Dukasaur, there was no other way. The fascist regimes of Germany and Japan had to be utterly destroyed and sadly the civilians had to suffer immensely. The fascist governments were given the terms and only after Hitler died and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did they consent to surrender.

We (USA) helped rebuild a better Germany and Japan. Those same suffering civilians had democracy and a strong economy that benefits both the Germans (West Germany) and Japan.

The murderous Japanese and German regimes had what was coming to them during the aggression they started with total disregard to civilian populations.

Leaving these fascists in control would of made the world less stable and the innocents to suffer more.

You reap what you sow.

In the case of Germany, I agree with you. Fascism had taken root in the culture, and only a total and humiliating defeat was enough to expose its moral bankruptcy and shock the people into turning a different direction.

Japan was different. The Army High Command had largely hijacked the mechanisms of government, solely by their own power without any broad support. Most elements of Japanese society were interested in modernization and leaving the feudal war traditions behind. Families sent their children to England, France, and the U.S. to study. Japan was trying to join the mainstream of Western society. What has happened there since the war is more or less a continuation of what was already happening before the war, with the war itself being a detour on the road.

Keep in mind that Roosevelt deliberately provoked the Japanese into war, in order to get around the will of Congress which wanted to remain neutral and stay out of WWII entirely. He didn't need to have done that, and even after it was done, it could have been undone.

[Maxleod]

Now mrs is siding with Imperial Japan? I thought he/she/it, being chinese, hated Japan, especially WWII Japan?

[saxitoxin]

Agree with Duk.

Also this -

only after Hitler died and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did they consent to surrender

- is flatly wrong. In July 1945, Japan offered, via Switzerland, to surrender to the United States. The U.S. attacked Hiroshima and Nagasaki a month later. Even Admiral Leahy, Truman's chief of staff, agreed the atom bombs were unnecessary:

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons."

It was 50% science experiment and 50% Truman '48 campaign stunt.

[Votanic]

Agree with Duk.

Also this -

only after Hitler died and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did they consent to surrender

- is flatly wrong. In July 1945, Japan offered, via Switzerland, to surrender to the United States. The U.S. attacked Hiroshima and Nagasaki a month later. Even Admiral Leahy, Truman's chief of staff, agreed the atom bombs were unnecessary:

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons."

It was 50% science experiment and 50% Truman '48 campaign stunt.

Nothing wrong with campaign stunts... and science is also sorta important... sometimes.

Ftop putting down nukes just because you're heavily invested in conventional warfare ("Oh no! bullet stocks will tank if nobody is alive to buy guns.").
That's just like the oil companies putting down solar* panels, Hello?

Besides, nuclear explosions are also really beautiful and cool (metaphorically speaking, of course).

One of my favourites is the one by David Lynch:

It's so mystical and eerie... Kinda makes you think, huh?

*Ironically enough, the sun is basically just a big fusion reactor. Nature knows best.

[bigtoughralf]

Now mrs is siding with Imperial Japan? I thought he/she/it, being chinese, hated Japan, especially WWII Japan?

I'm a big tough fella named Ralf, OT regulars simply like to fantasise about me being an Asian woman because speaking to an imaginary transexual is the closest thing they have to a sex life.

The Japanese WWII government and military were every bit as sick as the Nazis (in fact, probably worse), but that doesn't justify mass extermination of civilians whose only crime was existing in Japan.

[Votanic]

I'm a big tough fella named Ralf, OT regulars simply like to fantasise about me being an Asian woman because speaking to an imaginary transexual is the closest thing they have to a sex life.

It's called de-transitioning... and it happens a lot more than those woketivist-SJW-LibNazi-Alphabet-Doctors would like the public to know:
https://nypost.com/2022/07/11/trans-woman-returns-to-life-as-man-and-hits-out-at-the-activist-doctor-who-turned-his-life-upside-down/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Heyer

ralf, that's great that you finally stopped drinking the 'Kool-aid' (Well, at least that 'Kool-Aid')
Btw, just out of idle curiosity, how scarred up and deformed are you after your ordeal? I mean that both mentally and physically.

[Votanic]

Hmm, I somehow accidentally posted the same post twice.... I'll just put a pretty picture here instead.

[jusplay4fun]

Outside of Hollywood propaganda movies and US school textbooks it's pretty widely accepted that it was the USSR turning on Japan that prompted them to surrender, not the nuclear bombing.

Even your desperate trawling of bottom-of-the-barrel sources such as a confederation of US military museums hasn't actually turned up any that endorse your claim the bombings caused Japan to surrender. Maybe you should spend a little time screening the content of your next copy-paste-a-thon before sharing it. A high word count is not the same thing as a persuasive argument, after all.

A high word count? You have NOT refuted my Hamas post in another thread

jp4 tactic #1 - bombard people with copy-pastes
jp4 tactic #2 - change the subject entirely
jp4 tactic #3 - descend into random insults and ad hominem

Not bad jp, you've managed to run through your entire book of tricks in just two posts. Maybe you're getting better at being concise!

NO, I have MORE. Your weak responses have not elicited more, weak-ralph, and RARELY do.

Above is ANOTHER pathetic and impotent response by ralph. He cannot refute my points. He is pitiful AND HE proves it again. LOSER.

#4 JP4F states the truth:
HAMAS is simply a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. Check its charter.
They hide behind women and children.
They operate near, at, and under hospitals and schools.
Neither ralph nor saxi have denied any of these statements,
further bolstering these points.
End of this Set of FACTS.

#5 I point out lies by weak wingman ralph and his PAL saxi.

[jusplay4fun]

Hmm, I somehow accidentally posted the same post twice.... I'll just put a pretty picture here instead.

Good Catch, Vot, and good picture, too. We need a "Zen" moment in this thread.

[bigtoughralf]

jp thinks that 'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' is a good response to someone saying that there was no need to drop atom bombs on Japan.

What do you think of Biden's economic policies? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
How do I connect my VCR to my TV? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
What time are you coming over for dinner? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!

[Pack Rat]

jp thinks that 'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' is a good response to someone saying that there was no need to drop atom bombs on Japan.

What do you think of Biden's economic policies? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
How do I connect my VCR to my TV? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
What time are you coming over for dinner? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

[Votanic]

Religion = Countries/Organizations = Sports Teams.

Who are you rooting for?
Probably whoever you are betting on? ...investing in? ...have ownership of? ... or maybe it's just personal similarity or geographic proximity?)

In any case, lets not have idiosyncratic, hypocrital, and self-serving conceptions of morality sully these otherwise fine and outstanding competitive events.

Comments like "Your guys blow up people eviler than our guys!" is just uncalled for.

(I'm double posting this on the Allah thread).

[saxitoxin]

jp thinks that 'Hamas is a terrorist organisation' is a good response to someone saying that there was no need to drop atom bombs on Japan.

What do you think of Biden's economic policies? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
How do I connect my VCR to my TV? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!
What time are you coming over for dinner? Hamas is a terrorist organisation!

[Votanic]

Why Diplomacy and Debate is ultimately worse than violence.
(...or is there even a difference?)

In a word 'lies'.

Breaking it down further...
Beyond the obvious distortion and misrepresentation of fact, and similar lies of omission, is the further dishonesty of ideaological or economic conflicts of interest that destroy any 'good faith' possibility of finding resolution or compromise through the bandying of words.

The only real, honest alternative is to tip over the card table. Blow things up.

What? you say you are tired of all the violence, with it's pain, and misery, and one-sided advantages (be they 'unfair'* or not)?

Well, maybe you haven't been blowing things up right. Go nuclear and keep them blown up.

* Even placed within quotation marks, any hypothetical concept such as fairness and justice must stick in the throat of any being trying to honestly rationalize anything. No morality or law can be implemented outside of the power structure that controls it. Laws (religious or temporal) are only further enforcement of self-serving lies. The fact that only the wealthy and powerful can take full advantage of the law (Try suing someone if you're poor.) is not a minor technicality. That alone entirely undermines the hypocritical, dirty business of legislation and law. The difference is only between taking/destroying everything you can and having a piece of writing saying you can take/destroy everything you can.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" - Aleister Crowley
Fine, then, that is true enough, but can't you at least shut up and just do it then?

[bigtoughralf]

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

Hamas have carried out a bunch of terrorist attacks including the one on October 7th. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Saying that Israel should stop committing war crimes is not an expression of support for Hamas and all its actions, it is a statement of opposition to the Israeli government's ongoing bombing of Gazan children.

What do you think, Pack Rat? Do you think 5,000 dead children and another 25,000 orphaned (and counting) is acceptable?

[Votanic]

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

Hamas have carried out a bunch of terrorist attacks including the one on October 7th. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Saying that Israel should stop committing war crimes is not an expression of support for Hamas and all its actions, it is a statement of opposition to the Israeli government's ongoing bombing of Gazan children.

What do you think, Pack Rat? Do you think 5,000 dead children and another 25,000 orphaned (and counting) is acceptable?

Let them abuse you and they shall declare you virtuous, but as soon as you stick up for yourself, they will turn around and lableyou a terrorist.
Yes, maybe each and everyone of us do elicit terror with every moment and action of our existence...
But that is still no reason to compound the problem by finger-pointing others as terrorists, while feigning non-terrorism for ourselves.

[Pack Rat]

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

Hamas have carried out a bunch of terrorist attacks including the one on October 7th. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Saying that Israel should stop committing war crimes is not an expression of support for Hamas and all its actions, it is a statement of opposition to the Israeli government's ongoing bombing of Gazan children.

What do you think, Pack Rat? Do you think 5,000 dead children and another 25,000 orphaned (and counting) is acceptable?

I already answered your question.

War is hell!

Hamas needs to be destroyed, as they proved killing, torture and raping civilians. Over a thousand murdered and a couple of hundred civilians held hostage and thousands of Gazan civilians as human shields.


Hamas has refused Red Cross access to the hostages.

Enough said! Israel will hunt down and destroy Hamas leadership, wherever they hide.

On a side note, Netanyahu must go.

[jusplay4fun]

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

Hamas have carried out a bunch of terrorist attacks including the one on October 7th. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Saying that Israel should stop committing war crimes is not an expression of support for Hamas and all its actions, it is a statement of opposition to the Israeli government's ongoing bombing of Gazan children.

What do you think, Pack Rat? Do you think 5,000 dead children and another 25,000 orphaned (and counting) is acceptable?

I already answered your question.

War is hell!

Hamas needs to be destroyed, as they proved killing, torture and raping civilians. Over a thousand murdered and a couple of hundred civilians held hostage and thousands of Gazan civilians as human shields.


Hamas has refused Red Cross access to the hostages.

Enough said! Israel will hunt down and destroy Hamas leadership, wherever they hide.

On a side note, Netanyahu must go.

I thought you are the one to advice me not to feed the troll(s).

As pointed out elsewhere, ralph offers NO real refutation on many key issues. He only offers mostly impotent satire and posts dribble and drivel.

[bigtoughralf]

Hamas needs to be destroyed, as they proved killing, torture and raping civilians. Over a thousand murdered and a couple of hundred civilians held hostage

The IDF needs to be destroyed, as they proved killing, torture and raping civilians. Over 20,000 murdered and hundreds of civilians held hostage.

[Pack Rat]

You are correct bigtoughralf, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Whew...thought for a minute that you were being silly or worse a troll.

Hamas have carried out a bunch of terrorist attacks including the one on October 7th. I haven't said anything to the contrary.

Saying that Israel should stop committing war crimes is not an expression of support for Hamas and all its actions, it is a statement of opposition to the Israeli government's ongoing bombing of Gazan children.

What do you think, Pack Rat? Do you think 5,000 dead children and another 25,000 orphaned (and counting) is acceptable?

I already answered your question.

War is hell!

Hamas needs to be destroyed, as they proved killing, torture and raping civilians. Over a thousand murdered and a couple of hundred civilians held hostage and thousands of Gazan civilians as human shields.


Hamas has refused Red Cross access to the hostages.

Enough said! Israel will hunt down and destroy Hamas leadership, wherever they hide.

On a side note, Netanyahu must go.

I thought you are the one to advice me not to feed the troll(s).

As pointed out elsewhere, ralph offers NO real refutation on many key issues. He only offers mostly impotent satire and posts dribble and drivel.

I won't go back and forth as you do and waste a lot of time copy/paste to try to prove my point. Let Ralf be Ralf! Nobody really takes Ralf seriously and his past history of being a Chinese transsexual who trolls and supports China, Russia, North Korea and assortments of terrorist regimes and organization is ridiculous.

Don't reason or debate with a troll. If you do, he/she will run you around in circles and frustrate you. Make your point and move on.

[saxitoxin]

The IDF today killed three Israelis held in preventative detention ("hostage") by Hamas.

Israeli "Hostages" Killed by Hamas: 0
Israeli "Hostages" Killed by Israel: 3