CONQUISTADORES 1.17

[zipper66]

jungle 5 shows gold, gives gold. but its not jungle 5, its jungle 6 with gold.

[SoN!c]

jungle 5 shows gold, gives gold. but its not jungle 5, its jungle 6 with gold.

Working on it. We found some more. Some are hard to detect as you need a combo.. Will be fixed asap.

[Swimmerdude99]

Has this map been updated - given it is now released/in beta?

[plurple]

ahh yes all of those issues were fixed. I did post about it but I think it was at the time of the reset and so was lost and I didn't realise

[Swimmerdude99]

Two comments for this one:
- It took me until today, to finally find any text related to how you can get to the middle from your fort. I think that should likely get updated some how - maybe rainbow emblem instead of the black one to help draw the eyes towards it and indicate that the color matters?
- I don't think having a territory number next to the forts makes any sense. They should be removed

[SoN!c]

- I don't think having a territory number next to the forts makes any sense. They should be removed

It has a function (so you can see how many terrts there are in total in the region and you can calculate max deploy), because: if you lose your fort you loose all deploy in that continent..

Every 2 regions in a continent is +1.. so all 26 terrs in Tupac give +13 IF you have the fort..

[Swimmerdude99]

Ah interesting

[concrete]

I have played this map some and really like it. I Like the reset on the cannons but think 4 isnt enough. My thoughts 8-10 would be better as a killer reset.

[Swimmerdude99]

I have played this map some and really like it. I Like the reset on the cannons but think 4 isnt enough. My thoughts 8-10 would be better as a killer reset.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts concrete. Is it possible to defeat the start in the lower right hand corner in 1v1 from any other starting position? Do you think increasing cannon neutral reset makes that worse?

[SoN!c]

Im open to suggestions but any number bigger then 4 is gonna make the cannon(s) see a lot of "unused" cannonpowder...? I was more expecting comments like "we should expand the cannon range to 13 tbh"?

About lower right hand corner:

If you look at pure numbers it can't be more balanced then it is now :

First gold cob to be found from starting point is 3 terrs out for all starting positions. First bottle out is 2 terrs out for all forts (starting positions).

Second and third gold cob is exactly 4 and 5 terrs out for all starting positions..

Second and third bottle is 3 and 4 terrs out for all forts..

So same (exact) balance on gold cob & rum bonusses for all forts and to reach the (always neutral) Orellana fort is about 10 terrs for all starting positions (9 or 10), The Eldorado temple is about the same (9 to 12) if you count from the fort (starting position) itself...because if you take the tunnel its exactly the same 5 terrs for all to reach an entrance...

Pure visually the lower right hand corner is a lot closer but thats just visual.
You cannot get it more balanced then that?.

This map is designed with CC super league in mind, mainly 1vs1 "quick fun" if you get it as a random map.

But like i said : open to all suggestions

[Swimmerdude99]

Counting territories is one thing, recognizing that they get the fastest coin+rum bonus AND have a continued attack path to keep growing without splitting, early - is another thing.

The two strongest sites, in my experience are Tupac and Uku Pacha with Tupac being stronger against Inca, than Uku Pacha is against Cortez.

Ranked from Worst to Best with reasoning:
4) Inca
- Its weak because the attack path is split for early bonus, OR you have to take 4 territs, and then double back to have cannon access.
- When you expand north, it comes with no great benefit because your troops are likely sitting on north to keep expanding, so you can get hit from the back, and can get bombed by cortez still.
- Cortez usually won't play north due to the awkward pathing/delay to second coin, or skipping the first one altogether to avoid splitting. So your advantage of playing north vs Cortez isn't really there, he will just play south and bomb you and stalmate unless you push into Tupac, but you can only do that once you know the player is not on Tupac.

3) Second weakest is Cortez
- but its weakness in attack path and having to split for bonus accumulation is overcome in its ability to heavily disrupt Uku Pacha and Inca with the best cannon on the map
- Cortez will basically always lose to Tupac due to delayed income and no disruption.

2) The second strongest is Uku Pacha
- because its the only place that seems to have a winning play against Tupac possibility when going second. But you still usually will have to go first to leverage it.
- It beats Inca unless on sunny, for similar reasons referenced before. Inca can only match deploy expansion by splitting, and its not as easily done in early turns as it is on Uku Pacha.
- You can also still win against Cortez, because if they don't expand, you get greater bonus. And if they do expand you can easily eat them up, because you were linearly stacking troops at your north in case you want to go cannon.
- Going second vs Uku is usually a death sentence.

1) Clear first place is Tupac
- It gets the coin+rum bonus in only 3 territs, and can easily get 3 sets without splitting attack path or having troops on the wrong side from assaults.
- Inca's natural play can't keep up, even with access to a cannon to disrupt. It wastes too many troops to bomb Tupac to expand effectively and match.
- Cortez can't do anything and has to work much harder to expand/keep up in deploy
- Uku Pacha can go head to head with Tupac and feels like a "who went first" matchup.

*******************
Ultimately the map is designed for 1v1 which is good - I hate it though. I think poly 2 is actually the best, so you can potentially grow as fast as the tupac player by deploying both players on one other player to keep up in the early game.
I think the map is also actually best on sunny to even out the starting spots, but the gameplay is less interesting and still would rather have Tupac everygame if I had a choice.
In foggy Tupac is by far the strongest, there is no risk or deviation, you always play for bonuses to outdeploy opponents and sit if you want.
I prefer games foggy, but don't think its any good.

And to address it directly this doesn't work out the way "it being 2 territs away" sounds.

First gold cob to be found from starting point is 3 terrs out for all starting positions. First bottle out is 2 terrs out for all forts (starting positions).

In Inca you HAVE to take 4 territs from Inca to get anything. You only have to take 3 from Tupac, and on Tupac if you fail, you just keep going the same direction because there is no need to split paths/fort across/back to the start.
In Cortez, to get your second pair, you have to double back for the bottle.
In Uku Pacha you have to take 4 territs but don't have split.

*******************
As to how to balance - I haven't a clue - the asymmetrical nature is important to gameplay, I think. But Tupac just has everything going for it imo. You'd think maybe its diagonal opponent could beat it, but it can't unless sunny/going first.
You could consider making Inca cannon only a 3 or 2, so Tupac actually has a weakness, or add a cannon to Uku Pacha to the right that is closer and would range Tupac early. But then I'd just switch to liking Uku Pacha as the strongest. I think the biggest balance issue is Inca being so spread out in its gameplan and having to go two directions. Cortez makes up for that in a very effective cannon and the two for one slot in the south.

[SoN!c]

We can also adjust cannon range individually to balance it out more like you suggest. Let me think on it.

[concrete]

I find you can win from any starting point, different strategies are needed from each. Tupac isnt assured victory although it is my favorite one and hold a few advantages. Over all a well thought out map....so far. i am going to try out the "gold continent" and see how that goes. I really like this map.
I still think the cannons should be slightly higher. Maybe let them hit other things besides just the rum..... i plan on playing a lot on this map. Hope to see more like this in the future.

[SoN!c]

I find you can win from any starting point, different strategies are needed from each. Tupac isnt assured victory although it is my favorite one and hold a few advantages. Over all a well thought out map....so far. i am going to try out the "gold continent" and see how that goes. I really like this map.
I still think the cannons should be slightly higher. Maybe let them hit other things besides just the rum..... i plan on playing a lot on this map. Hope to see more like this in the future.

Thanks - this is exactly why we make maps!

[SoN!c]

okay so here is CONQUISTADORES 1.18:




improved GFX on gold continent, the jungle; (gold continent looks like gold, jungle looks like jungle) tupac, inca (desert) and uku pacha (looks like a mysterious "cave" territory.

Different range on the cannons

and "the worse starting position" got an extra rum bottle so they can drink "courage"

and the tunnels are more clear on symbols and legend

[plurple]

You might need to a add a black border to the gold coins on gold 2 and 4 as I can barely see them especially when the number is added on top

[SoN!c]

You might need to a add a black border to the gold coins on gold 2 and 4 as I can barely see them especially when the number is added on top

[iancanton]

having studied 26 completed standard, 2-player, auto-placement, sequential, escalating spoils, chained, sunny, non-trench games from Game 24429792 to Game 24471651, of which Game 24458300 was defaulted and therefore discarded from the analysis, player 1 won 19-6 against player 2 from 25 games (76%), the higher-score player won 17-8 against the lower-score player (68%), cortez won 7 and lost 5 from 12 games (58%), uku pacha won 6 and lost 5 from 11 games (55%), tupac won 7 and lost 7 from 14 games and inca won 5 and lost 8 from 13 games.

so far, there's no significant evidence that any starting point has a great advantage over any other, so this is good news indeed. there is a bias toward player 1 though, possibly caused by the high initial deploy.

ian.

[Swimmerdude99]

You might need to a add a black border to the gold coins on gold 2 and 4 as I can barely see them especially when the number is added on top

Is it inentional to have the sizing of coins and bottles be different everywhere? It doesn't feel very intentional to me/look as well done.

I liked the color of Uku earlier and found it easier to read. Now the bottles blend in too much.

I'm not sure I like the change of the cannons to huge neutrals... But... I can't say it's a bad idea in particular. Per Ian's data, I'd be interested in facing someone in a bunch of unscored matches (assuming we both have several games) to try and see if Tupac really doesn't have much advantage.

[SoN!c]

Okay so we change UKU Pacha back in original colour.

The idea of the gold coins was intentional, same with the bottles to give it a "funny drunken look". But we can make them all the same size.

The cannons can be set to 5 neutrals or different - 4 to 7 to balance "bad" positions more?

[SoN!c]

having studied 26 completed standard, 2-player, auto-placement, sequential, escalating spoils, chained, sunny, non-trench games from Game 24429792 to Game 24471651, of which Game 24458300 was defaulted and therefore discarded from the analysis, player 1 won 19-6 against player 2 from 25 games (76%), the higher-score player won 17-8 against the lower-score player (68%), cortez won 7 and lost 5 from 12 games (58%), uku pacha won 6 and lost 5 from 11 games (55%), tupac won 7 and lost 7 from 14 games and inca won 5 and lost 8 from 13 games.

so far, there's no significant evidence that any starting point has a great advantage over any other, so this is good news indeed. there is a bias toward player 1 though, possibly caused by the high initial deploy.

ian.

GREAT FEEDBACK

Perhaps we can also have different neutrals on "terr 1" to further tweak the balance and to flat the bias toward player 1 out more.

Like Tupac 6 neutrals on terr 1, Cortez just 3... (for example)

Lots to think about.

[Swimmerdude99]

If Cortez was 1, and Tupac was 2, that would actually probably help pretty decently for the issue I'm highlighting.

However, if we take the data that was pulled up by ian, perhaps helping Cortez and nerfing Tupac isn't of any benefit. A 1 on Inca starting nuetral does sound like a good starting place imo. That one I think we could go ahead and do.

[iancanton]

A 1 on Inca starting neutral does sound like a good starting place imo.

we're both agreed that inca isn't the best start position, although my own evidence is weak and overshadowed by the player 1 advantage that i'm seeing.

for player 2 at the moment, conquistadores is not as unplayable as age of realms 1, which has a +5 castle auto-deploy, but a good way to minimise the 19-6 player 1 advantage might be to lower the fort auto-deploy from +3 to +2 or even to +1.

is cortez a deliberate misspelling of cortés?

remove the apostrophes from it's and bottle's. they're not wanted!

the gold cob & rum bonus will be clearer if the gold cob and rum are placed beside each other visually rather than being separated by the words. not necessarily a big issue, just trying to anticipate complaints from those playing the first time. however, is the -400 curse a -400 decay or a -400 reduction in deploy? this isn't obvious from the legend.

ian.

[plurple]

-400 reduction in deploy. As the technology wasnt there to instantly lose

[SoN!c]

A 1 on Inca starting neutral does sound like a good starting place imo.

we're both agreed that inca isn't the best start position, although my own evidence is weak and overshadowed by the player 1 advantage that i'm seeing.

for player 2 at the moment, conquistadores is not as unplayable as age of realms 1, which has a +5 castle auto-deploy, but a good way to minimise the 19-6 player 1 advantage might be to lower the fort auto-deploy from +3 to +2 or even to +1.

is cortez a deliberate misspelling of cortés?

remove the apostrophes from it's and bottle's. they're not wanted!

the gold cob & rum bonus will be clearer if the gold cob and rum are placed beside each other visually rather than being separated by the words. not necessarily a big issue, just trying to anticipate complaints from those playing the first time. however, is the -400 curse a -400 decay or a -400 reduction in deploy? this isn't obvious from the legend.

ian.

Yes : CORTEZ IS A DELIBERATE MISSPELLING OF CORTéS

Because CORTéS or CORTéZ always has that funny look why the "e" is not in grand capital....


I agree to remove the apostrophes from bottle's

"the gold cob & rum bonus will be clearer if the gold cob and rum are placed beside each other visually"' : great advise