Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Fri Aug 07, 2026 8:30 pm

jimboston wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2026 8:22 pm It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Yeah, and you're the 3 year old.

Try again, JimB. Another abject failure of a response when I already destroyed nearly ALL your SEVEN "arguments." I even caught you in an absolute LIE in G). How PATHETIC.

And:

jimboston wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2026 9:02 am by jimboston » Fri Aug 07, 2026 10:02 am
I’m done with you

NO, you're NOT; you felt compelled to reply, and weakly, at that.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Sat Aug 08, 2026 3:19 am

jimboston wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2026 8:22 pm It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.

jimboston · Post by **jimboston** » Sat Aug 08, 2026 6:39 am

Apatheist wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2026 3:19 am
jimboston wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2026 8:22 pm It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.
Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.

f*ck off.

This forum sucked 2 hrs ago when JP’s posts were 30% of the total content, now they’re 75-80%.

Have you read the exchange? GFD MRSWDK.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Sat Aug 08, 2026 7:55 am

jimboston wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2026 6:39 am
Apatheist wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2026 3:19 am
jimboston wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2026 8:22 pm It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.
Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.
f*ck off.

This forum sucked 2 hrs ago when JP’s posts were 30% of the total content, now they’re 75-80%.

Have you read the exchange? GFD MRSWDK.

That was sarcasm about JP's way of ignoring inconvenient truths. I thought you understood sarcasm... oh well (thinks - maybe you're not really jimboston???). I'm actually on your side in this debate...and I'm not, nor have I ever been, any of those names that you mentioned, please let that go.

Lionz · Post by **Lionz** » Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm

@All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

@jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

@Apatheist

You might have referenced AI in regards to the Tower of Babel specifically. Let’s just be careful about not assuming something is true because most people think it’s true or it’s widely taught that it’s true or Wikipedia or AI says it’s true.

Continents might have shifted rapidly between 4k and 5k years ago during a global flood that eventually covered all land.

We might agree that wooly mammoths were not prehistoric even if we have very different opinions when it comes to dragons/dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers and short neck giraffes and many other things. When it comes to the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, there might be an ancestor of the Nile Monitor in there, sure. But what about everything else on it and what stops at that mosaic if I referenced dozens of images? What is really going on if A) The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dragons over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago and if B) Marco Polo claimed a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades and if C) dragons are mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium and if D) a 16th century work called the Aberdeen Bestiary refers to dragons as if they existed and could kill elephants and if E) there's a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there and if F) Aristotle, Herodotus, Josephus, Philae, Ammianus, Cicero, Aelianus, Mela, Solinus, Ammianus, Matthew of Edessa, 4'th century Coptic monks, and Esarhaddon's inscription all reference or attest the existence of flying serpents or reptiles? Just see what Merriam Webster itself says dragon means if you don’t think they really existed. What was a dinosaur called before 1852 if that’s when the word was coined?

There might have been little to absolutely no one who thought things were millions of year old before George Lyell and a book written by him called Principles of Geology and before Charles Darwin (who was inspired by Lyell?) and a book written by him called On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Tell me one piece of evidence you find most compelling when it comes to the earth being millions of years old and let’s deep dive it if there is a whole tax funded materialist religion now centered around uniformitarianism. Just look at the dollar bill and see the words NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM next to occultic symbolism associated with freemasonry and Egypt if you doubt we live in a NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM.

As far as there being many deities? Is there any religion over 3000 years old that does not involve beings from the heavens/outer space teaching things or copulating with human women if you consider ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Persians and Egyptians and Greeks and Nordics and Hindus and Mayans and so on? But were they proper deities worthy of worship or fallen angels? I suggest looking into Genesis 6:4 or the Book of Enoch or going here if you want to learn more: http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/nephilim.html

“Does one have to ‘take Jesus into one's heart’ (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?” I propose that John 3:16 and John 14:6 are true, but the meek will inherit the earth and people going up to live in a cloudy heavenly abode with naked baby cherubim and harps forever at death isn’t a Biblical based concept maybe. There might be multiple heavens with birds flying in the first heaven and the sun and moon being in the second heaven. I guess Noah and Abraham and Noah have reincarnated and most every human who has ever walked on earth is alive in flesh on earth right now.

And no? The Gospel accounts were not dictated by an omniscient Being and they are just the results of first and second hand witnesses to things writing stuff down years after events took place maybe. The Great Pyramid might be one of the greatest pieces of evidence there is when it comes to credibility of Jesus. Arguably even more than Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27. http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/pyramid.html

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 4:03 am

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm
@Apatheist

You might have referenced AI in regards to the Tower of Babel specifically. Let’s just be careful about not assuming something is true because most people think it’s true or it’s widely taught that it’s true or Wikipedia or AI says it’s true.

As I've said elsewhere, AI is just a more organised google search, and the links take one to the website from which they took the information. It's not AI making it up.
Your last line could equally well refer to anything you quote from your own source.
At some point, unless you've done the archaeology yourself, you have to trust a written source.
For example, I know Jupiter has 4 moons, because I've seen them. I'm happy to trust astronomers when they say there are dozens.

Continents might have shifted rapidly between 4k and 5k years ago during a global flood that eventually covered all land.

You seem to have no concept of how much momentum is required to shift a continent. All sorts of things might have happened, but the laws of physics suggest that they did not.
Did this flood cover Mount Everest? I think not. Try to work out how much water would be required to cover the entire planet to a depth of 28000ft.
If the polar ice caps all melted, that would raise sea levels by about 230ft. You're talking more than 100 times as much.

We might agree that wooly mammoths were not prehistoric even if we have very different opinions when it comes to dragons/dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers and short neck giraffes and many other things. When it comes to the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, there might be an ancestor of the Nile Monitor in there, sure. But what about everything else on it and what stops at that mosaic if I referenced dozens of images? What is really going on if A) The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dragons over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago and if B) Marco Polo claimed a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades and if C) dragons are mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium and if D) a 16th century work called the Aberdeen Bestiary refers to dragons as if they existed and could kill elephants and if E) there's a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there and if F) Aristotle, Herodotus, Josephus, Philae, Ammianus, Cicero, Aelianus, Mela, Solinus, Ammianus, Matthew of Edessa, 4'th century Coptic monks, and Esarhaddon's inscription all reference or attest the existence of flying serpents or reptiles? Just see what Merriam Webster itself says dragon means if you don’t think they really existed. What was a dinosaur called before 1852 if that’s when the word was coined?

Artistic licence. Trump created a picture of himself as the messiah - does that mean he was? You can see pictures of Medusa, Cerberus and all sorts of weird creatures.
Dinosaur fossils were originally thought to be lizards or reptiles, based on what was around at the time, before they realised that they were a different species. Maybe the classical dragon did exist, maybe it didn't - but until someone finds a fossil, it's hard to believe.

There might have been little to absolutely no one who thought things were millions of year old before George Lyell and a book written by him called Principles of Geology and before Charles Darwin (who was inspired by Lyell?) and a book written by him called On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Tell me one piece of evidence you find most compelling when it comes to the earth being millions of years old and let’s deep dive it if there is a whole tax funded materialist religion now centered around uniformitarianism. Just look at the dollar bill and see the words NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM next to occultic symbolism associated with freemasonry and Egypt if you doubt we live in a NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM.

Carbon dating. As a former physicist, I understand how half-life decay works.
From your friendly AI:
Carbon dating is very accurate for dating organic remains up to 50,000 years old. By measuring the steady decay of carbon-14 isotopes against stable carbon-12, scientists calculate time since an organism died. Results are routinely calibrated against tree rings and ancient deposits to ensure high precision. Carbon-14 decays at a fixed, predictable rate of 5,730 years. Tree rings, lake layers, and coral data correct past atmospheric fluctuations. Older rocks require different methods like potassium-argon or uranium dating.
Ancient Egypt had its own archaeologists who studied the past as it was to them. They knew that things changed over time.

As far as there being many deities? Is there any religion over 3000 years old that does not involve beings from the heavens/outer space teaching things or copulating with human women if you consider ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Persians and Egyptians and Greeks and Nordics and Hindus and Mayans and so on? But were they proper deities worthy of worship or fallen angels? I suggest looking into Genesis 6:4 or the Book of Enoch or going here if you want to learn more: http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/nephilim.html

The bible is not evidence of anything, it's just someone's opinion, or wish list.
At least you admit that religions are over 3000 years old...which suggests that humans sprang up from nothing, discovered fire, science and farming, and evolved societies to the point of religion in the space of 2000 years, all independently around the world. Is that really likely?
The fact that they do indicate extra-terrestrial contact seems to me to be just as evidential of "ancient aliens" as it does of a single deity.

“Does one have to ‘take Jesus into one's heart’ (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?” I propose that John 3:16 and John 14:6 are true, but the meek will inherit the earth and people going up to live in a cloudy heavenly abode with naked baby cherubim and harps forever at death isn’t a Biblical based concept maybe. There might be multiple heavens with birds flying in the first heaven and the sun and moon being in the second heaven. I guess Noah and Abraham and Noah have reincarnated and most every human who has ever walked on earth is alive in flesh on earth right now.

So the first heaven is dark and knee-deep in guano? What was that heaven like before birds evolved from dinosaurs?

And no? The Gospel accounts were not dictated by an omniscient Being and they are just the results of first and second hand witnesses to things writing stuff down years after events took maybe. The Great Pyramid might be one of the greatest pieces of evidence there is when it comes to credibility of Jesus. Arguably even more than Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27. http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/pyramid.html

Ah, the Pyramids...the oldest of which is KNOWN to be 4700 years old (according to https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/we-mi ... -was-built). So humanity evolved from nothing to building that in the space of what, 300 years? Those must have been some intensive classes in school.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 4:21 am

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm @All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

Typical JimBoston, attacking character and NOT dealing with the issue. This is especially true when he has NO legitimate response and cannot debate the issue at hand.

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

I agree, Lionz, on martyrdom. I think I made similar arguments already in recent days. Did you read that?

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm @jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

Cheers to you, too, Lionz.

I do not have the CONCLUSIVE answer to the Adam's mother question. I have read an idea that humans existed BEFORE God breathed "the Breath of Life" into Adam (which I believe the name means "the first man"). It is the Breath of God that differentiates Humans from other beings. The idea goes on to say that the Breath of God gave man a SOUL.

As far as the rock formation Dún Briste Sea Stack, two responses:
1) We have discussed the Noah Flood of the entire world and I think that story is over-stated. There is NO significant evidence of a world-wide flood that explains all geologic events, as recorded in the rocks.

I have also read, recently, more details of how early Jewish writer(s) may have used the Flood theory from ancient Sumerians and added God as a POSITIVE Force here. The Jewish writer put a Jewish perspective on that story, and made the story about Man's Salvation.

2) I need to do more research on Dún Briste Sea Stack to give a better answer. HOWEVER:

I think the formation is LIKELY due to many MILLIONS and even BILLIONS years of sedimentation and deposition of rocks and sand and silt. Then there is UPLIFT of portions of the earth's crust, then EROSION. As I recall, you are skeptical of erosion and the timeline, too. A study of Geology, as I have DONE, makes ALL this possible and offers a sufficient explanation. Rushing water can be and is a very destructive Force. Look at erosion after a big storm. ADD at least MILLIONS of years and the Grand Canyon becomes very possible.

So your timeline for the earth and Creation is too short, Lionz, imo. I have read a plausible explanation that explains the descrepancies of the account of the SIX days of creation. A "day" is defined by the earth rotation on its axis (day and night) and the "year" is defined in terms of earth's orbit about the sun. So both day and night (the day and year, too) depend on the SUN, and the sun is not created until day 4 of the Genesis creation story. How long were days 1-3? And did Day 4 happen in 24 hours, if the sun had to be CREATED on Day 4? So there is a possiblity that the Creation Story in Genesis MAY be VALID, but with a LONGER timeline. I read about this idea some 20 years ago, so this entire matter is something that has caused me to read and consider ideas for a very LONG time, and I have done so BEFORE this thread started.

In Summary, we agree, Lionz, on Martyrs; we disagree on Geology, and I gave you a POSSIBLE answer about Adam.

I also provide a possible agreement of Science and Religion (the Bible, actually) when it comes to the Some of the Major Questions of Creation.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 4:35 am

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm @All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

Typical JimBoston, attacking character and NOT dealing with the issue. This is especially true when he has NO legitimate response and cannot debate the issue at hand.

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

I agree, Lionz, on martyrdom. I think I made similar arguments already in recent days. Did you read that? And I mention the idea of martyrs well before 2026.

Try this:

Re: Who is the “Greatest Man Who Ever Lived”?
Post by jusplay4fun » Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 pm

viewtopic.php?p=5286053&hilit=martyrs#p5286053

and this:

Re: Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh
Post by jusplay4fun » Tue Aug 04, 2026 2:45 am

Now let's discuss points that Lionz wants to raise with me specifically. I was wondering when you would return to this discussion, Lionz.

Lionz wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2026 9:33 pm @jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

Cheers to you, too, Lionz.

I do not have the CONCLUSIVE answer to the Adam's mother question. I have read an idea that humans existed BEFORE God breathed "the Breath of Life" into Adam (which I believe the name means "the first man"). It is the Breath of God that differentiates Humans from other beings. The idea goes on to say that the Breath of God gave man a SOUL.

As far as the rock formation Dún Briste Sea Stack, two responses:
1) We have discussed the Noah Flood of the entire world and I think that story is over-stated. There is NO significant evidence of a world-wide flood that explains all geologic events, as recorded in the rocks.

I have also read, recently, more details of how early Jewish writer(s) may have used the Flood theory from ancient Sumerians and added God as a POSITIVE Force here. The Jewish writer put a Jewish perspective on that story, and made the story about Man's Salvation.

2) I need to do more research on Dún Briste Sea Stack to give a better answer. HOWEVER:

I think the formation is LIKELY due to many MILLIONS and even BILLIONS years of sedimentation and deposition of rocks and sand and silt. Then there is UPLIFT of portions of the earth's crust, then EROSION. As I recall, you are skeptical of erosion and the timeline, too. A study of Geology, as I have DONE, makes ALL this possible and offers a sufficient explanation. Rushing water can be and is a very destructive Force. Look at erosion after a big storm. ADD at least MILLIONS of years and the Grand Canyon becomes very possible.

So your timeline for the earth and Creation is too short, Lionz, imo. I have read a plausible explanation that explains the descrepancies of the account of the SIX days of creation. A "day" is defined by the earth rotation on its axis (day and night) and the "year" is defined in terms of earth's orbit about the sun. So both day and night (the day and year, too) depend on the SUN, and the sun is not created until day 4 of the Genesis creation story. How long were days 1-3? And did Day 4 happen in 24 hours, if the sun had to be CREATED on Day 4? So there is a possiblity that the Creation Story in Genesis MAY be VALID, but with a LONGER timeline. I read about this idea some 20 years ago, so this entire matter is something that has caused me to read and consider ideas for a very LONG time, and I have done so BEFORE this thread started.

In Summary, we agree, Lionz, on Martyrs; we disagree on Geology, and I gave you a POSSIBLE answer about Adam.

I also provide a possible agreement of Science and Religion (the Bible, actually) when it comes to the Some of the Major Questions of Creation.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 4:49 am

Regarding Dún Briste, this source is a good starting point for more discussion, if Lionz wants to go there. My comment on this rock formation posted a few minutes earlier is basically confirmed via this source. I can provide MORE sources and details, now that I know what this specific rock formation IS, but I doubt that more sources changes this discussion between Lionz and me. Lionz thinks that this rock formation proves the Noah Flood story in Genesis 7. I disagree.

Dún Briste (Irish: Broken Fort) is a natural sea stack or pilaster – in geomorphology called a stack. (...)

The stack is primarily composed of layered sedimentary rocks, including limestone, sandstone, and shale. Formed roughly 350 million years ago during the Carboniferous period, these horizontal, multi-colored strata represent ancient seabed deposits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BAn_Briste

btw: I put no credence in the legend of St. Patrick in regards to this rock formation.

and

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 5:42 am

With regard to martyrs: of course they deeply believed their religion, no question. This is not exclusive to Christian martyrs though, is it? What about all the Jews who stuck to their religion and were put to death in the Inquisition (by those "meek" Christians) and in the Holocaust? Islam and Sikhism have martyrs too; of the major religions, it's only Hindus and Buddhists who don't. There's even the Catholics who were persecuted by the Protestants and vice-versa - as I've said before, Thomas More is one of my heroes, and I'm not even Catholic.
There were others who died for their political beliefs. Some have died for standing up for the sports team they support. There's nothing particularly special about Christian martyrs, you just happen to be on their side.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 11:23 am

Did I ever say martyrs are UNIQUE to Christians?

Of course, other die for their beliefs. That is obvious.

However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

What does AI say?

When did martyrdom begin?

Martyrdom has roots that trace back to ancient times, particularly within Jewish tradition. The concept of martyrdom is often linked to the passive resistance of Jews during the Maccabean revolt (173–164 B.C.), which inspired later Christian ideals of martyrdom

The early Christian martyrdom began to take shape in the first century A.D., particularly during the persecutions under Roman emperors like Nero, who initiated widespread persecution of Christians around A.D. 64

This period marked a significant escalation in the number of individuals who were executed for their faith, establishing martyrdom as a central theme in early Christian identity.

and

When did martyrdom become significant?

Martyrdom became significant in early Christianity during the first few centuries AD. This period was marked by intense persecution of Christians, particularly under Roman emperors like Nero, Domitian, and Diocletian. Martyrs were viewed as exemplars of faith, and their deaths were believed to confer special spiritual rewards, such as the forgiveness of sins committed after baptism The accounts of these martyrdoms served to strengthen the faith of other Christians during times of persecution (as per PBS).

The accounts of these martyrdoms served to strengthen the faith of other Christians during times of persecution.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 2:21 pm

@Lionz: a further thought on dragons.
If you see a strange light moving at high speed in the sky, what is your initial thought as to what it is?
a) An angel or similar from heaven
b) An extra-terrestrial space craft
c) Some secret advanced technology
d) Something more mundane - balloon, Venus, ball lightning, lenticular cloud etc?

Now, YOU know that we can build machines that fly at high speed, so you might go for b or c.
Ancient writers didn't, so they would have described it in terms that they could understand. They'd have seen things with wings that flew; they'd have seen lizards. Maybe they saw a komodo dragon or a nile monitor leap off somewhere high; perhaps they saw a bat or a flying squirrel. Maybe they saw people coming down from b) with jet packs and interpreted that as a) because they didn't understand what was going on.

The root Greek word drakōn originally meant a large serpent. Human's innate, evolutionary fear of snakes heavily shaped early serpentine templates. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/dragon ... l-creature)
Ancient civilizations frequently unearthing large, mysterious bones - such as dinosaur fossils or Pleistocene mammal remains - interpreted them as the skeletal remains of legendary dragons.
Nile crocodiles and massive monitor lizards provided a living basis for scaly, multi-limbed beasts. (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -23969126/)
Specific physical traits in regional lore often matched local fossil finds, such as fossilized Pliocene deer skull antlers inspiring aspects of the Chinese Long.

As with the nile monitor, it only took a few seconds of Googling to unearth some information and answers from trusted sources. I really recommend that you put your questions into a decent search engine before posting them on here in any attempt to undermine the arguments of others. I realise that facts get in the way of belief, but now that we have documented facts, that really is the place to start.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 2:26 pm

jusplay4fun wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2026 11:23 am
However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

Hmmm... is it possible that, in the days before the general populace were able to write, entire groups were wiped out but forgotten about because nothing of them survived, and the "winners" didn't want any reminders?
I accept there's nothing documented, but we don't know much about what was going on in South America, Asia or even tribal Africa at the time.
I'll have to let your point stand, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I'm not sure we can be 100% that it NEVER happened anywhere else.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Wed Aug 12, 2026 3:03 pm

Apatheist wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2026 2:26 pm
jusplay4fun wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2026 11:23 am
However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

Hmmm... is it possible that, in the days before the general populace were able to write, entire groups were wiped out but forgotten about because nothing of them survived, and the "winners" didn't want any reminders?
I accept there's nothing documented, but we don't know much about what was going on in South America, Asia or even tribal Africa at the time.
I'll have to let your point stand, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I'm not sure we can be 100% that it NEVER happened anywhere else.

Without a better means to discern what actually happened in UNRECORDED History, we can agree on your point here, Apatheist.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 1:03 am

One can speculate and offer ideas, but without facts to support such, it is moot, I think.

And therefore I will argue, my KEY Point remains: Christianity produced the first RECORDED and thus KNOWN Martyrs, making a HUGE Impression upon the Roman Empire and thus help preserve and SPREAD Christianity.

And it seems that we will not hear from Lionz for another month or more.

jusplay4fun · Post by **jusplay4fun** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 2:23 am

Let's discuss a KEY Point: There are many different church denominations, especially Christian denominations.

Does this huge number (at least 40,000) mean they are all WRONG? NO.

This is simply Humans disagreeing as to what is the Ultimate Truth, imo. If one studies most Christian Faiths and denominations, there are many truths that nearly ALL agree with. We fight and argue and debate on the fringes of those core beliefs.

One of the main aspects of the Roman Catholic Church is the realization that words and events can be interpreted differently over time and by many individuals. The early heresies, challenging the Central Narrative of THE Four Gospels, included Arianism and Gnoticism. Many, including Emperor Constantine, recognized the need for one entity to settle such disputes and controversies. Even the decision as to which Gospels are VALID was one such controversy. The first main gathering to make decisions about what is valid happened at the Council of Niceae.

With the concept of a Central Authority in the Roman Emperor and later of signficant Kings, and the need and desire to seek The Truth, Christians developed the concept that the Authority on Faith is the purview of the Catholic Church and ultimately, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome. The splintering of the Christianity happened first with the Great Schism as the Orthodox Church split from Rome. This is no surprise as the differences between the Greeks and the Romans were evident early in many aspects and not just in Faith and Theology.

And once Martin Luther led a breakaway, the Roman Church SPLINTERED into many fragments (the Protestant Reformation). Shortly after, The Church of England, Calvinists, and many other groups formed. Even today, Churches splinter; look at the division of the Presbyterian (closely associated with Calvinism) and Episcopal Churches, as two such examples within just the past 25 years. (btw: Total Count: Estimates suggest there are over 40 different Methodist denominations worldwide, as per AI.) I have seen much fragmentation by Baptists in my community, as a group splits from the "Main" Church to form their own much smaller congregation. We have many Churches in our Community, mostly Christian.

Who has the "correct" faith? Catholics makes that claim, as do other Churches. One reason the Pope commands so much attention, besides the sheer large size of the Catholic population, is the Catholic claim to be one true Church.The Nicene Creed uses the statement "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church." Note that in the Creed, catholic here is NOT Capitalized. Why? It means UNIVERSAL. And the Catholic Church claims to be universal, as there are Catholics everywhere in the world.

There are many other examples. Look at the Legal World; there are lots of disagreements and different interpretations of what is legally JUST. Who has that (Final and ultimate) Authority in the US? The Supreme Court, hence its decisions and appointments are of intense interest by many. Major League Baseball made that same calculus and vested its Authority in its Commissioner. Now all major sports in the US has a Leader, a single person (with his Office and assistants, of course). That same desire in areas of Faith and Beliefs for the ULTIMATE decisions and Decision Makers is why the Pope gets much of his attention.

Now many do not like the decision(s) of the Pope. That is why Henry VIII formed the Church of England. Now there are many political factors involved. German Princes backed Martin Luther and Henry VIII did want a male heir, as two examples. When enough people get upset, they break away to form their own group. The Church has no formal army, so those breakaways are not beaten back into submission (BUT there WERE attempts to do so soon after the Protestant Reformation movement began).

Now when a group breaks away, most people simply accept it. Hence we have at least 40,000 different versions of Christianity.

Most or many of the most public controversies now involving the Catholic Church involve sex (NOT a major theme in Scripture, btw; it is to me a "fringe issue"). Those matters are: celibate priests, pedophile priests, abortion, and treatment of homosexuals. One recent Pope (I think it is Francis) said he wanted to move beyond these matters and wanted to shift attention toward the poor and marginalized.

One problem I have with these breakaway groups is that the focus is on its leader, its Pastor. A key question is who takes over as this Pastor dies. I wonder how many congregations survive after his death. It seems to me that most major churches find another leader, another pastor.

Another key question is why do so few young people not accept religion, ANY religion, as a major factor in their lives. There are many reasons. (I did read about this recently.) Most major churches in the US and Europe have had a HUGE LOSS of members. I think this is partly caused by affluence. When people are well-off, the need for religion is lessened. Many Catholic priests come from areas of poverty: Africa and the Phillipines. Poland saw a huge drop in Catholic Church attendance after the threat of Communism ended and as their society became more affluent. People turn to the Church at times of stress and emergencies. The growth of social media and mass media allow people to socialize outside the/their church. The fact that there are fewer children in each family also lessens the need for church attendance. (There are more reasons that I have read, btw.)

Summary; AI-generated

Christianity encompasses a vast array of denominations and sects. While it's challenging to pinpoint an exact number due to the diversity and ongoing evolution of beliefs, there are several major branches and numerous smaller denominations.

Major Branches

Catholicism: The largest branch, with over a billion adherents.
Protestantism: Includes many denominations such as Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, and Anglicans.
Orthodoxy: Comprises Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.
Diversity

Estimates suggest there are over 30,000 distinct Christian denominations worldwide, reflecting various interpretations of scripture and theological beliefs.

Each denomination may have its own unique practices, beliefs, and governance structures.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 3:57 am

jusplay4fun wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2026 2:23 am Let's discuss a KEY Point: There are many different church denominations, especially Christian denominations.

Does this huge number (at least 40,000) mean they are all WRONG? NO.

Most or many of the most public controversies now involving the Catholic Church involve sex (NOT a major theme in Scripture, btw; it is to me a "fringe issue"). Those matters are: celibate priests, pedophile priests, abortion, and treatment of homosexuals. One recent Pope (I think it is Francis) said he wanted to move beyond these matters and wanted to shift attention toward the poor and marginalized.

It doesn't mean they're all wrong. It does mean, however, that they can't all be right, which is my main standpoint; since it is impossible to know which, if any, is right, then it's highly likely (ie 39999:1) that one's belief is incorrect in respect of the differences.

As for your second statement - this is typical of the problem with the church. One can't just "move beyond" paedophiles and the treatment of homosexuals that easily - sweeping it under the carpet as though it didn't matter or never happened, or has stopped. This is one of your "trivial" or "moot" dismissals; it IS a big issue, and a very uncomfortable one for the church, but more so for the victims, and they've done damn all to root out the perpetrators. This is why people see the church as hypocritical - they're supposed to be caring, yet they're abusing those in their care (they're also not always celibate when they claim to be, as per the Borgias for example, but that's their choice and doesn't affect others unless it's non-consensual). This, along with abortion, shows that they're out of date and out of touch, which is perhaps why the youth (along with wealth and health) don't turn to religion for succour - and perhaps is further evidence that religion is man-made to fill a need, rather than being a fundamental truth.

HitRed · Post by **HitRed** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 5:35 am

February 11, 21

I hold the keys to life and death. I create life to serve me the one true Lord of all. I cry out for the tragedy that abortion has caused and has inflicted on the world and those lives that have been destroyed without justification. Every soul I create is valuable and special to me. I mold each person in the palm of my hand. I alone create life and call it into being. I alone call that life from this life in death. I am Lord of all the living and all those who hurt my little ones shall know my wrath like no other! Every life is precious to me not to be thrown away like trash! My heart aches for the loss of so many souls to this grave sin. Continue to pray for the unborn they are dear to me.

Go in my love and mercy.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 7:40 am

HitRed wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2026 5:35 am
February 11, 21

I hold the keys to life and death. I create life to serve me the one true Lord of all. I cry out for the tragedy that abortion has caused and has inflicted on the world and those lives that have been destroyed without justification. Every soul I create is valuable and special to me. I mold each person in the palm of my hand. I alone create life and call it into being. I alone call that life from this life in death. I am Lord of all the living and all those who hurt my little ones shall know my wrath like no other! Every life is precious to me not to be thrown away like trash! My heart aches for the loss of so many souls to this grave sin. Continue to pray for the unborn they are dear to me.

Go in my love and mercy.

WRONG.
What about the lives of the women who will be ruined by having a child that they don't want or can't look after? How good a life will it be for an unwanted, possibly abandoned child? What about those created by rape?

Stop making up and spouting this nonsense. Get some therapy.

HitRed · Post by **HitRed** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 7:54 am

Apatheist wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2026 7:40 am
HitRed wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2026 5:35 am
February 11, 21

I hold the keys to life and death. I create life to serve me the one true Lord of all. I cry out for the tragedy that abortion has caused and has inflicted on the world and those lives that have been destroyed without justification. Every soul I create is valuable and special to me. I mold each person in the palm of my hand. I alone create life and call it into being. I alone call that life from this life in death. I am Lord of all the living and all those who hurt my little ones shall know my wrath like no other! Every life is precious to me not to be thrown away like trash! My heart aches for the loss of so many souls to this grave sin. Continue to pray for the unborn they are dear to me.

Go in my love and mercy.

WRONG.
What about the lives of the women who will be ruined by having a child that they don't want or can't look after? How good a life will it be for an unwanted, possibly abandoned child? What about those created by rape?

Stop making up and spouting this nonsense. Get some therapy.

January 14, 20

Abortion

I am the way. I am the Prince of Peace. My ways are paved with love for each soul. My heart is marked by the piercing I received while I was on the Cross. More wounds have been put there. The killing of many of my children through abortion. The wound is so grave it is hard to bear at times. Life is so fragile no human can know.

I come to right the wrongs that have been done to my heart and God the Father. My heart bleeds for these children that are unwanted and thrown away like trash. I created each and every soul that has been lost to this grave sin abortion.

I call all to pray for an end to this grave sin. Put an end to the suffering my children are going through. I call for the repeal of such laws that permit this. I witness the death of my children daily.

Many do not see the harm they do when they kill my little ones. The pain that is caused in so many ways. The grief my Father and I feel for the loss of so many little ones to this horrible sin. My mother weeps over this grave loss of life.

Do not vote Democrat it would be a mortal sin to vote for this party. They do not support life in any form. They are self-love and not about me the creator of life itself. Their ways are not my ways, says the Lord of Hosts.

I call on people to follow the way of life. Each and every soul has its worth for I am the one who made them. I called all to life before time itself. I was there to witness life start. Each and every life is precious to me and my Father.

Go in my love and my mercy.

---

A mortal sin (Latin: peccatum mortale), in Catholic theology, is a gravely sinful act, which can lead to damnation if a person does not repent of the sin before death. A sin is considered to be "mortal" when its quality is such that it leads to a separation of that person from God's saving grace.

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 10:13 am

Abortion is never directly mentioned in the Bible

Pack Rat · Post by **Pack Rat** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 10:18 am

But, God has no problem murdering fetuses, babies and children.

The Flood: In Genesis, the global flood destroys all living creatures on earth, which inherently includes infants and children.The Tenth Plague of Egypt: In Exodus 12:29-30, God strikes down the firstborn of Egypt, which included firstborn infants and children.Conquest of Canaan / Amalekites: In passages like 1 Samuel 15:3 and Joshua, God commands the Israelites to totally destroy enemy populations, explicitly naming infants and children.David’s Son: In 2 Samuel 12:15-18, the prophet Nathan states that the Lord struck the infant son born to King David and Bathsheba with an illness that led to his death.

Apatheist · Post by **Apatheist** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 10:24 am

HitRed wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2026 5:35 am
Do not vote Democrat it would be a mortal sin to vote for this party. They do not support life in any form. They are self-love and not about me the creator of life itself. Their ways are not my ways, says the Lord of Hosts.

We're supposed to believe that Jesus is telling you which way to vote...and he's a Republican???

You really have lost it, mate. Give it up now, before you lose the right to vote due to mental incapacity.

HitRed · Post by **HitRed** » Thu Aug 13, 2026 10:38 am