Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh

[jusplay4fun]

It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Yeah, and you're the 3 year old. Try again, JimB. Another abject failure of a response when I already destroyed nearly ALL your SEVEN "arguments." I even caught you in an absolute LIE in G). How PATHETIC.

And:

by jimboston » Fri Aug 07, 2026 10:02 am
I’m done with you

NO, you're NOT; you felt compelled to reply, and weakly, at that.

[Apatheist]

It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.

[jimboston]

It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.

f*ck off.

This forum sucked 2 hrs ago when JP’s posts were 30% of the total content, now they’re 75-80%.

Have you read the exchange? GFD MRSWDK.

[Apatheist]

It’s like trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.

Apparently the best way to debate things is to declare anything that undermines your position as moot or trivial.

f*ck off.

This forum sucked 2 hrs ago when JP’s posts were 30% of the total content, now they’re 75-80%.

Have you read the exchange? GFD MRSWDK.

That was sarcasm about JP's way of ignoring inconvenient truths. I thought you understood sarcasm... oh well (thinks - maybe you're not really jimboston???). I'm actually on your side in this debate...and I'm not, nor have I ever been, any of those names that you mentioned, please let that go.

[Lionz]

@All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

@jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

@Apatheist

You might have referenced AI in regards to the Tower of Babel specifically. Let’s just be careful about not assuming something is true because most people think it’s true or it’s widely taught that it’s true or Wikipedia or AI says it’s true.

Continents might have shifted rapidly between 4k and 5k years ago during a global flood that eventually covered all land.

We might agree that wooly mammoths were not prehistoric even if we have very different opinions when it comes to dragons/dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers and short neck giraffes and many other things. When it comes to the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, there might be an ancestor of the Nile Monitor in there, sure. But what about everything else on it and what stops at that mosaic if I referenced dozens of images? What is really going on if A) The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dragons over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago and if B) Marco Polo claimed a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades and if C) dragons are mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium and if D) a 16th century work called the Aberdeen Bestiary refers to dragons as if they existed and could kill elephants and if E) there's a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there and if F) Aristotle, Herodotus, Josephus, Philae, Ammianus, Cicero, Aelianus, Mela, Solinus, Ammianus, Matthew of Edessa, 4'th century Coptic monks, and Esarhaddon's inscription all reference or attest the existence of flying serpents or reptiles? Just see what Merriam Webster itself says dragon means if you don’t think they really existed. What was a dinosaur called before 1852 if that’s when the word was coined?

There might have been little to absolutely no one who thought things were millions of year old before George Lyell and a book written by him called Principles of Geology and before Charles Darwin (who was inspired by Lyell?) and a book written by him called On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Tell me one piece of evidence you find most compelling when it comes to the earth being millions of years old and let’s deep dive it if there is a whole tax funded materialist religion now centered around uniformitarianism. Just look at the dollar bill and see the words NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM next to occultic symbolism associated with freemasonry and Egypt if you doubt we live in a NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM.

As far as there being many deities? Is there any religion over 3000 years old that does not involve beings from the heavens/outer space teaching things or copulating with human women if you consider ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Persians and Egyptians and Greeks and Nordics and Hindus and Mayans and so on? But were they proper deities worthy of worship or fallen angels? I suggest looking into Genesis 6:4 or the Book of Enoch or going here if you want to learn more: http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/nephilim.html

“Does one have to ‘take Jesus into one's heart’ (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?” I propose that John 3:16 and John 14:6 are true, but the meek will inherit the earth and people going up to live in a cloudy heavenly abode with naked baby cherubim and harps forever at death isn’t a Biblical based concept maybe. There might be multiple heavens with birds flying in the first heaven and the sun and moon being in the second heaven. I guess Noah and Abraham and Noah have reincarnated and most every human who has ever walked on earth is alive in flesh on earth right now.

And no? The Gospel accounts were not dictated by an omniscient Being and they are just the results of first and second hand witnesses to things writing stuff down years after events took maybe. The Great Pyramid might be one of the greatest pieces of evidence there is when it comes to credibility of Jesus. Arguably even more than Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27. http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/pyramid.html

[Apatheist]

@Apatheist

You might have referenced AI in regards to the Tower of Babel specifically. Let’s just be careful about not assuming something is true because most people think it’s true or it’s widely taught that it’s true or Wikipedia or AI says it’s true.

As I've said elsewhere, AI is just a more organised google search, and the links take one to the website from which they took the information. It's not AI making it up.
Your last line could equally well refer to anything you quote from your own source.
At some point, unless you've done the archaeology yourself, you have to trust a written source.
For example, I know Jupiter has 4 moons, because I've seen them. I'm happy to trust astronomers when they say there are dozens.

Continents might have shifted rapidly between 4k and 5k years ago during a global flood that eventually covered all land.

You seem to have no concept of how much momentum is required to shift a continent. All sorts of things might have happened, but the laws of physics suggest that they did not.
Did this flood cover Mount Everest? I think not. Try to work out how much water would be required to cover the entire planet to a depth of 28000ft.
If the polar ice caps all melted, that would raise sea levels by about 230ft. You're talking more than 100 times as much.

We might agree that wooly mammoths were not prehistoric even if we have very different opinions when it comes to dragons/dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers and short neck giraffes and many other things. When it comes to the Nile Mosaic of Palestrina, there might be an ancestor of the Nile Monitor in there, sure. But what about everything else on it and what stops at that mosaic if I referenced dozens of images? What is really going on if A) The Travels of Marco Polo suggests that there were people hunting dragons over 50 feet in length less than 1,000 years ago and if B) Marco Polo claimed a Chinese Emperor had a number of dragons which were used to pull his chariots in parades and if C) dragons are mentioned as very rare but still living creatures in a 16th century four-volume encyclopedia entitled Historiae Animalium and if D) a 16th century work called the Aberdeen Bestiary refers to dragons as if they existed and could kill elephants and if E) there's a city in France called Nerluc that was renamed in honor of a dragon with a horned head being killed there and if F) Aristotle, Herodotus, Josephus, Philae, Ammianus, Cicero, Aelianus, Mela, Solinus, Ammianus, Matthew of Edessa, 4'th century Coptic monks, and Esarhaddon's inscription all reference or attest the existence of flying serpents or reptiles? Just see what Merriam Webster itself says dragon means if you don’t think they really existed. What was a dinosaur called before 1852 if that’s when the word was coined?

Artistic licence. Trump created a picture of himself as the messiah - does that mean he was? You can see pictures of Medusa, Cerberus and all sorts of weird creatures.
Dinosaur fossils were originally thought to be lizards or reptiles, based on what was around at the time, before they realised that they were a different species. Maybe the classical dragon did exist, maybe it didn't - but until someone finds a fossil, it's hard to believe.

There might have been little to absolutely no one who thought things were millions of year old before George Lyell and a book written by him called Principles of Geology and before Charles Darwin (who was inspired by Lyell?) and a book written by him called On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. Tell me one piece of evidence you find most compelling when it comes to the earth being millions of years old and let’s deep dive it if there is a whole tax funded materialist religion now centered around uniformitarianism. Just look at the dollar bill and see the words NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM next to occultic symbolism associated with freemasonry and Egypt if you doubt we live in a NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM.

Carbon dating. As a former physicist, I understand how half-life decay works.
From your friendly AI:
Carbon dating is very accurate for dating organic remains up to 50,000 years old. By measuring the steady decay of carbon-14 isotopes against stable carbon-12, scientists calculate time since an organism died. Results are routinely calibrated against tree rings and ancient deposits to ensure high precision. Carbon-14 decays at a fixed, predictable rate of 5,730 years. Tree rings, lake layers, and coral data correct past atmospheric fluctuations. Older rocks require different methods like potassium-argon or uranium dating.
Ancient Egypt had its own archaeologists who studied the past as it was to them. They knew that things changed over time.

As far as there being many deities? Is there any religion over 3000 years old that does not involve beings from the heavens/outer space teaching things or copulating with human women if you consider ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and Persians and Egyptians and Greeks and Nordics and Hindus and Mayans and so on? But were they proper deities worthy of worship or fallen angels? I suggest looking into Genesis 6:4 or the Book of Enoch or going here if you want to learn more: http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/nephilim.html

The bible is not evidence of anything, it's just someone's opinion, or wish list.
At least you admit that religions are over 3000 years old...which suggests that humans sprang up from nothing, discovered fire, science and farming, and evolved societies to the point of religion in the space of 2000 years, all independently around the world. Is that really likely?
The fact that they do indicate extra-terrestrial contact seems to me to be just as evidential of "ancient aliens" as it does of a single deity.

“Does one have to ‘take Jesus into one's heart’ (or whatever phrase you prefer) in order to enter heaven?” I propose that John 3:16 and John 14:6 are true, but the meek will inherit the earth and people going up to live in a cloudy heavenly abode with naked baby cherubim and harps forever at death isn’t a Biblical based concept maybe. There might be multiple heavens with birds flying in the first heaven and the sun and moon being in the second heaven. I guess Noah and Abraham and Noah have reincarnated and most every human who has ever walked on earth is alive in flesh on earth right now.

So the first heaven is dark and knee-deep in guano? What was that heaven like before birds evolved from dinosaurs?

And no? The Gospel accounts were not dictated by an omniscient Being and they are just the results of first and second hand witnesses to things writing stuff down years after events took maybe. The Great Pyramid might be one of the greatest pieces of evidence there is when it comes to credibility of Jesus. Arguably even more than Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9:24-27. http://ancientnostalgia.weebly.com/pyramid.html

Ah, the Pyramids...the oldest of which is KNOWN to be 4700 years old (according to https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/we-mi ... -was-built). So humanity evolved from nothing to building that in the space of what, 300 years? Those must have been some intensive classes in school.

[jusplay4fun]

@All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

Typical JimBoston, attacking character and NOT dealing with the issue. This is especially true when he has NO legitimate response and cannot debate the issue at hand.

As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

I agree, Lionz, on martyrdom. I think I made similar arguments already in recent days. Did you read that?

@jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

Cheers to you, too, Lionz.

I do not have the CONCLUSIVE answer to the Adam's mother question. I have read an idea that humans existed BEFORE God breathed "the Breath of Life" into Adam (which I believe the name means "the first man"). It is the Breath of God that differentiates Humans from other beings. The idea goes on to say that the Breath of God gave man a SOUL.

As far as the rock formation Dún Briste Sea Stack, two responses:
1) We have discussed the Noah Flood of the entire world and I think that story is over-stated. There is NO significant evidence of a world-wide flood that explains all geologic events, as recorded in the rocks.

I have also read, recently, more details of how early Jewish writer(s) may have used the Flood theory from ancient Sumerians and added God as a POSITIVE Force here. The Jewish writer put a Jewish perspective on that story, and made the story about Man's Salvation.

2) I need to do more research on Dún Briste Sea Stack to give a better answer. HOWEVER:

I think the formation is LIKELY due to many MILLIONS and even BILLIONS years of sedimentation and deposition of rocks and sand and silt. Then there is UPLIFT of portions of the earth's crust, then EROSION. As I recall, you are skeptical of erosion and the timeline, too. A study of Geology, as I have DONE, makes ALL this possible and offers a sufficient explanation. Rushing water can be and is a very destructive Force. Look at erosion after a big storm. ADD at least MILLIONS of years and the Grand Canyon becomes very possible.

So your timeline for the earth and Creation is too short, Lionz, imo. I have read a plausible explanation that explains the descrepancies of the account of the SIX days of creation. A "day" is defined by the earth rotation on its axis (day and night) and the "year" is defined in terms of earth's orbit about the sun. So both day and night (the day and year, too) depend on the SUN, and the sun is not created until day 4 of the Genesis creation story. How long were days 1-3? And did Day 4 happen in 24 hours, if the sun had to be CREATED on Day 4? So there is a possiblity that the Creation Story in Genesis MAY be VALID, but with a LONGER timeline. I read about this idea some 20 years ago, so this entire matter is something that has caused me to read and consider ideas for a very LONG time, and I have done so BEFORE this thread started.

In Summary, we agree, Lionz, on Martyrs; we disagree on Geology, and I gave you a POSSIBLE answer about Adam.

I also provide a possible agreement of Science and Religion (the Bible, actually) when it comes to the Some of the Major Questions of Creation.

[jusplay4fun]

@All

Cheers.

@JimBoston

Were you forced fed religion as a kid if you sound bitter? (I asked this in my work space before noticing later Catholic talk and my hunch was correct maybe.)

How about address some stuff I’ve said as opposed to making generalized attacks on my character. You compare me to a dog and imply I’m a lunatic and not as competent as you at understanding logic and science?

Typical JimBoston, attacking character and NOT dealing with the issue. This is especially true when he has NO legitimate response and cannot debate the issue at hand.

As far as what you asked on the 2nd, just consider what happened in Exodus if He made it very clear who He was to the Israelites and then the Israelites still did questionable stuff and made Him angry anyway. Now consider 2 Esdras 1:35-37.

http://1611bible.com/kjv-king-james-version-apocrypha/2-esdras/1.html

Things might be a lot more clear soon, but consider the wheat and tares stuff if you want all evil destroyed and/or all tares destroyed asap. This might all just be a speck of time at the beginning of eternity where hearts are being weighed.

As far as martyrdom, who willingly and knowingly dies for a lie that they absolutely know is a lie? You think the disciples were just lying about seeing Christ resurrected but were still willing to be tortured and killed for what they knew was garbage?

I agree, Lionz, on martyrdom. I think I made similar arguments already in recent days. Did you read that? And I mention the idea of martyrs well before 2026.

Try this:

Re: Who is the “Greatest Man Who Ever Lived”?
Post by jusplay4fun » Wed May 24, 2023 9:55 pm

viewtopic.php?p=5286053&hilit=martyrs#p5286053

and this:

Re: Debate here if you doubt Jesus is the Creator of the universe born in flesh
Post by jusplay4fun » Tue Aug 04, 2026 2:45 am

Now let's discuss points that Lionz wants to raise with me specifically. I was wondering when you would return to this discussion, Lionz.

@jusplay4fun

Do you think Adam had a mother? If so, what do you think made him special?

The formation is known as the Dún Briste Sea Stack and secular academia wants us to think it portrays 350 million years of slow build up despite how smooth lines are in it maybe. I propose that Genesis 7 contains a more accurate explanation when it comes to what happened.

Cheers to you, too, Lionz.

I do not have the CONCLUSIVE answer to the Adam's mother question. I have read an idea that humans existed BEFORE God breathed "the Breath of Life" into Adam (which I believe the name means "the first man"). It is the Breath of God that differentiates Humans from other beings. The idea goes on to say that the Breath of God gave man a SOUL.

As far as the rock formation Dún Briste Sea Stack, two responses:
1) We have discussed the Noah Flood of the entire world and I think that story is over-stated. There is NO significant evidence of a world-wide flood that explains all geologic events, as recorded in the rocks.

I have also read, recently, more details of how early Jewish writer(s) may have used the Flood theory from ancient Sumerians and added God as a POSITIVE Force here. The Jewish writer put a Jewish perspective on that story, and made the story about Man's Salvation.

2) I need to do more research on Dún Briste Sea Stack to give a better answer. HOWEVER:

I think the formation is LIKELY due to many MILLIONS and even BILLIONS years of sedimentation and deposition of rocks and sand and silt. Then there is UPLIFT of portions of the earth's crust, then EROSION. As I recall, you are skeptical of erosion and the timeline, too. A study of Geology, as I have DONE, makes ALL this possible and offers a sufficient explanation. Rushing water can be and is a very destructive Force. Look at erosion after a big storm. ADD at least MILLIONS of years and the Grand Canyon becomes very possible.

So your timeline for the earth and Creation is too short, Lionz, imo. I have read a plausible explanation that explains the descrepancies of the account of the SIX days of creation. A "day" is defined by the earth rotation on its axis (day and night) and the "year" is defined in terms of earth's orbit about the sun. So both day and night (the day and year, too) depend on the SUN, and the sun is not created until day 4 of the Genesis creation story. How long were days 1-3? And did Day 4 happen in 24 hours, if the sun had to be CREATED on Day 4? So there is a possiblity that the Creation Story in Genesis MAY be VALID, but with a LONGER timeline. I read about this idea some 20 years ago, so this entire matter is something that has caused me to read and consider ideas for a very LONG time, and I have done so BEFORE this thread started.

In Summary, we agree, Lionz, on Martyrs; we disagree on Geology, and I gave you a POSSIBLE answer about Adam.

I also provide a possible agreement of Science and Religion (the Bible, actually) when it comes to the Some of the Major Questions of Creation.

[jusplay4fun]

Regarding Dún Briste, this source is a good starting point for more discussion, if Lionz wants to go there. My comment on this rock formation posted a few minutes earlier is basically confirmed via this source. I can provide MORE sources and details, now that I know what this specific rock formation IS, but I doubt that more sources changes this discussion between Lionz and me. Lionz thinks that this rock formation proves the Noah Flood story in Genesis 7. I disagree.

Dún Briste (Irish: Broken Fort) is a natural sea stack or pilaster – in geomorphology called a stack. (...)

The stack is primarily composed of layered sedimentary rocks, including limestone, sandstone, and shale. Formed roughly 350 million years ago during the Carboniferous period, these horizontal, multi-colored strata represent ancient seabed deposits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BAn_Briste

btw: I put no credence in the legend of St. Patrick in regards to this rock formation.



and

[Apatheist]

With regard to martyrs: of course they deeply believed their religion, no question. This is not exclusive to Christian martyrs though, is it? What about all the Jews who stuck to their religion and were put to death in the Inquisition (by those "meek" Christians) and in the Holocaust? Islam and Sikhism have martyrs too; of the major religions, it's only Hindus and Buddhists who don't. There's even the Catholics who were persecuted by the Protestants and vice-versa - as I've said before, Thomas More is one of my heroes, and I'm not even Catholic.
There were others who died for their political beliefs. Some have died for standing up for the sports team they support. There's nothing particularly special about Christian martyrs, you just happen to be on their side.

[jusplay4fun]

Did I ever say martyrs are UNIQUE to Christians?

Of course, other die for their beliefs. That is obvious.

However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

What does AI say?

When did martyrdom begin?

Martyrdom has roots that trace back to ancient times, particularly within Jewish tradition. The concept of martyrdom is often linked to the passive resistance of Jews during the Maccabean revolt (173–164 B.C.), which inspired later Christian ideals of martyrdom

The early Christian martyrdom began to take shape in the first century A.D., particularly during the persecutions under Roman emperors like Nero, who initiated widespread persecution of Christians around A.D. 64

This period marked a significant escalation in the number of individuals who were executed for their faith, establishing martyrdom as a central theme in early Christian identity.

and

When did martyrdom become significant?

Martyrdom became significant in early Christianity during the first few centuries AD. This period was marked by intense persecution of Christians, particularly under Roman emperors like Nero, Domitian, and Diocletian. Martyrs were viewed as exemplars of faith, and their deaths were believed to confer special spiritual rewards, such as the forgiveness of sins committed after baptism The accounts of these martyrdoms served to strengthen the faith of other Christians during times of persecution (as per PBS).

The accounts of these martyrdoms served to strengthen the faith of other Christians during times of persecution.

[Apatheist]

@Lionz: a further thought on dragons.
If you see a strange light moving at high speed in the sky, what is your initial thought as to what it is?
a) An angel or similar from heaven
b) An extra-terrestrial space craft
c) Some secret advanced technology
d) Something more mundane - balloon, Venus, ball lightning, lenticular cloud etc?

Now, YOU know that we can build machines that fly at high speed, so you might go for b or c.
Ancient writers didn't, so they would have described it in terms that they could understand. They'd have seen things with wings that flew; they'd have seen lizards. Maybe they saw a komodo dragon or a nile monitor leap off somewhere high; perhaps they saw a bat or a flying squirrel. Maybe they saw people coming down from b) with jet packs and interpreted that as a) because they didn't understand what was going on.

The root Greek word drakōn originally meant a large serpent. Human's innate, evolutionary fear of snakes heavily shaped early serpentine templates. (https://www.britannica.com/topic/dragon ... l-creature)
Ancient civilizations frequently unearthing large, mysterious bones - such as dinosaur fossils or Pleistocene mammal remains - interpreted them as the skeletal remains of legendary dragons.
Nile crocodiles and massive monitor lizards provided a living basis for scaly, multi-limbed beasts. (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- ... -23969126/)
Specific physical traits in regional lore often matched local fossil finds, such as fossilized Pliocene deer skull antlers inspiring aspects of the Chinese Long.

As with the nile monitor, it only took a few seconds of Googling to unearth some information and answers from trusted sources. I really recommend that you put your questions into a decent search engine before posting them on here in any attempt to undermine the arguments of others. I realise that facts get in the way of belief, but now that we have documented facts, that really is the place to start.

[Apatheist]

However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

Hmmm... is it possible that, in the days before the general populace were able to write, entire groups were wiped out but forgotten about because nothing of them survived, and the "winners" didn't want any reminders?
I accept there's nothing documented, but we don't know much about what was going on in South America, Asia or even tribal Africa at the time.
I'll have to let your point stand, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I'm not sure we can be 100% that it NEVER happened anywhere else.

[jusplay4fun]

However, I do not know of any significant group of martyrs BEFORE Christianity. Since it was UNIQUE in the ancient world, it obviously had an impact on many Romans and the Roman Empire, citizens or not.

Hmmm... is it possible that, in the days before the general populace were able to write, entire groups were wiped out but forgotten about because nothing of them survived, and the "winners" didn't want any reminders?
I accept there's nothing documented, but we don't know much about what was going on in South America, Asia or even tribal Africa at the time.
I'll have to let your point stand, as I have no evidence to the contrary, but I'm not sure we can be 100% that it NEVER happened anywhere else.

Without a better means to discern what actually happened in UNRECORDED History, we can agree on your point here, Apatheist.