Continuation of Christianity debate.

[magneticgoop]

i believe in predestination because God knows everything past, present, and future and would therefore know what will happen to you.

he decides what you will do by giving you your qualities and knowing what will become of you. You make your decisions, but he made you the way you are, and so you will make the decisions he knew you would make when he made you. The only way that you could be in real control of your own actions is if God did not make everything about you the way it is

yes God does create you the way you start out, a serial killer is not created a serial killer just different events made something inside snap.the way you are created does not mean that is the way you will be at any given point in your exestance

[CrazyAnglican]

Sure, I can see your point. When we say, "all-knowing" what do we mean? Do we mean intimate knowledge of everything past, present, & future (ie. predestination), or knowing everything within the bounds of possibility without imposing the right choices on us. Essentially he knows all of the possible choices I can make and the consequences for all of them, but chooses to let me make them. Is it somehow a combination of both (based on what we mean by "all"). Is it more like Asimov's Foundation Trilogy where individuals are unpredictable, but behavior of groups can be forseen. There are any number of interpretations.

In short, I haven't a clue. It's the kind of fine point that may make the difference between two churches or sects, but I don't think it's really that important. That's why I don't get involved with this kind of debate often. It's truly about belief and interpretation and could essentially go on forever; as long as someone imagines a different possible belief they can attribute to me.

I was only showing that other interpretations were possible, and that the particular one that WalrusesRN chose was not, IMO, a predominant one. This is more or less a semantics game "If you believe this then ..............." when often I don't believe that in the first place so its irrelevant to me.

Uh, long-winded again, I'm sorry . In essence, you're right the question "Does 'all-knowing' imply predestination or are there other possibilities?" is a problem, but not one that keeps me up at night. I don't see my interpretation of that word as germain to God's existence. For all I know, it might just be home team hype.

[magneticgoop]

God gave us freedom to govern ourselves he lets us do what we want and believe what we want but we must pay the penalty. if the penalty is heaven or hell it was that persons choice of religion. as for aztecs and such their ancestors chose to turn from judaism and they are accountable to all of those lives in hell. unfortunately that is the price we pay for free will

"Under one of these hats is eternal happyness. Under the rest is eternal damnation. All these hats are completly identical and I'm not going to give you any hints as to which is the correct one"

Sounds like the actions of a completly sane god

Ummm, how exactly were the Aztecs supposed to know of Christianity when they ravelled to the Americas several dozen millennia before Christianity was started?

Even if the 6000 year theory was correct (and so the Aztecs must have known about Christianity before they left Asia ) then why should their decendants suffer for something that their ancestors did? This completly invalidates your point about the ability of someone to become Christian later in life!

Seems this was missed.

the difference between Christianity and every other religion is that God comes to you not you go to God. people suffer from consequences of human events all the time: Romans salting the fields of Carthage, the communist party, slave trade. how does this invalidate my point about becoming a christian?

[magneticgoop]

Sure, I can see your point. When we say, "all-knowing" what do we mean? Do we mean intimate knowledge of everything past, present, & future (ie. predestination), or knowing everything within the bounds of possibility without imposing the right choices on us. Essentially he knows all of the possible choices I can make and the consequences for all of them, but chooses to let me make them. Is it somehow a combination of both (based on what we mean by "all"). Is it more like Asimov's Foundation Trilogy where individuals are unpredictable, but behavior of groups can be forseen. There are any number of interpretations.

In short, I haven't a clue. It's the kind of fine point that may make the difference between two churches or sects, but I don't think it's really that important. That's why I don't get involved with this kind of debate often. It's truly about belief and interpretation and could essentially go on forever; as long as someone imagines a different possible belief they can attribute to me.

I was only showing that other interpretations were possible, and that the particular one that WalrusesRN chose was not, IMO, a predominant one. This is more or less a semantics game "If you believe this then ..............." when often I don't believe that in the first place so its irrelevant to me.

Uh, long-winded again, I'm sorry . In essence, you're right the question "Does 'all-knowing' imply predestination or are there other possibilities?" is a problem, but not one that keeps me up at night. I don't see my interpretation of that word as germain to God's existence. For all I know, it might just be home team hype.

good point never thought of it that way guess i'll have to think this one over

[WalrusesRN]

Hi WalrusesRN,

I tend to avoid the nature of God / existence of God topic due to its really a matter of personal interpretation and ultimately nobody will agree on either side. You asked, however, about flaws in reasoning and quoted me, so I’ll jump in temporarily.

If God determines every characteristic you have, and is all-knowing, then he knows when he creates you how you will respond in life and the life you will ultimately lead.

The first thing I see here is that you are providing a concept of an all-knowing and all-powerful God as if it were the only possible concept. You, as I’m sure you know, are taking the predestination idea of the Calvinists. It’s an idea, sure, but by no means representative of all Christians and their beliefs. In fact, if you meet someone who believes this let me know; I never have it would be neat to talk with them.
So the first thing you are doing is trying to saddle the believers here with a belief they probably don’t agree with in the first place. Other concepts of God are possible: For instance, He gives us all of our characteristics and then takes a hands-off approach. A car company may make a car with exact specifications, but once it is delivered to the driver anything can happen. If a Ferrari owner never has the oil changed; he’ll have a problem sooner or later.

So, basically you are making a faulty generalization. A minority of Christians might believe something like what you are saying, but you seem to be assuming all of us believe that. It’s faulty because most of us don’t. So you aren’t arguing against the existence, or even possibility of God’s being all powerful and all knowing. You are arguing against the plausibility of Predestination. Which I agree is implausible, that’s why I didn’t believe it in the first place (well, you asked for a detailed critique ).

I am not saying he only allows you to do certain things, I am saying that in creating you, he decides what you will do by giving you your qualities and knowing what will become of you. You make your decisions, but he made you the way you are, and so you will make the decisions he knew you would make when he made you.

See predestination above. What if your definition of all-knowing is faulty. Perhaps, like I believe, it means something more akin to knowing all of the possible choices and having a plan for where he’d like me to go, but leaving it up to me to make those choices or not. Again you are assuming all Christians are Predestinationists; most aren’t for the very reasons you have admirably put forth. Again, really good argument against Predestination, but as I didn’t ascribe to that in the first place, it doesn’t apply to me. My understanding of God is different than your construct. Again you have assumed that your concept is the only valid one, and generalized that if you attack this one concept you have attacked the entire world view. Hey, If I believed in predestination, you’d have me shaking in my shoes though.

The only way that you could be in real control of your own actions is if God did not make everything about you the way it is, and that would imply that God is either not all-powerful, or is purposely randomizing the morals of the people he creates.

You stated earlier that he gave us our characteristics. Then you went on to make the assertion that there are only two possible alternatives. You have generalized that giving characteristics and giving morals are the same thing. The Nature vs. Nurture debate in psychology hasn’t lead to a consensus about whether morals (psychological traits) are ingrained at birth or are a result of interaction with people around us. You basically assumed that it’s nature and therefore God’s will that we have such and such a moral code from birth. I think it’s more likely to be a mix of the two. God gives us a starting point and we take it from there. Regardless, you made an attempt to force a conclusion “God isn’t all-powerful, or he’s meddlesome and capricious” these are not the only two possible conclusions to be made. Like a father giving his son the keys to the car. He could have given us a good start and then voluntarily stepped aside hoping we’ll make responsible choices while we’re out.

Please explain where there is any flaw in my reasoning in detail, as people have seemed to only tell me I'm wrong in this point and said "He doesn't control everything you do" without giving any explanation of how this can be wrong from the argument I have given.

Again, you made a good argument against predestination. You won me over; I don’t believe in predestination either. The flaws in predestination, however, don’t really have much bearing on the existence of God, or whether or not he is all powerful. Certainly, I believe he’s all powerful, but people on the site have told you that they believe he chooses to allow us to make our own choices. I believe he’s all-knowing, in that he knows all the possible choices and all of the possible futures that we might make or have. He chooses to let us make them knowing the consequences, but hoping eventually for us to follow him.

Now, having said this, I don’t expect you to embrace my beliefs. They are just that, my beliefs. Arguing the point will have little effect either way. You asked for a critique of your reasoning. My critique is that it misses the point you apparently intended to make, because in it you are ascribing beliefs to Christians that most do not believe. You also try to force your opposition to choose between two conclusions when there are other equally valid ones that do not suit your purposes. (Sorry, you said, in detail )

CrazyAnglican, I appreciate your critic. It seemed well thought out and honest. I don't agree with everything you said, but I respect your point of view and I am glad somebody finally broke down my argument rather than contradicting it blindly with no explanation. You say that you believe in an all-powerful God who is merely a guide in our lives, that he may give us some of our morals, but the rest could come from our experience in life (nature vs nurture). I was arguing against those that believe God is all-powerful and my definition of all-knowing, which includes knowing which actions people will take. Even if part of morals are put in you by God, and the rest by your experiences, the God I was arguing against would know how a person would turn out because he would know what that person would encounter in life, along with other people, and know how their morals thus far would make them respond, and he would also know how that event would shape the person's morals, and so God would know what they did in the next decision, how that shaped their morals and so on and so forth. You see, this way, the nature vs. nurture morals debate doesn't matter because God would know and have control over how both would affect a human being. This includes human being interaction assuming that God created all human beings and followed them and knew all about them.
The idea of a God that is not both all-knowing and all-powerful is one that is very hard to disprove, because what God would have been involved in we would not know. This is why people thanking God repeatedly for good things happening to them irks me. For them to be absolutely sure that God was the cause of the good occurence, they would have to believe that God was both all-powerful and all-knowing, and therefore responsible for any bad things that happen to them as well. I do know many people who believe in a God who is not all-powerful and all-knowing, and I accept their belief as a possibility (if a minute one in my opinion) and I don't bother them or become upset at all unless they repeatedly mention things about God that I disagree with in my presence.
Your analogy to a car seems somewhat ridiculous to me, because if the car could think and move for itself, with specific specs to do this, as humans can and have specific qualities, then we just arrive back at the original question in the first place.

I am sorry for responding since you generally avoid this topic, but I have always thought that rational discussion can only lead to further knowledge.

[WalrusesRN]

i believe in predestination because God knows everything past, present, and future and would therefore know what will happen to you.

he decides what you will do by giving you your qualities and knowing what will become of you. You make your decisions, but he made you the way you are, and so you will make the decisions he knew you would make when he made you. The only way that you could be in real control of your own actions is if God did not make everything about you the way it is

yes God does create you the way you start out, a serial killer is not created a serial killer just different events made something inside snap.the way you are created does not mean that is the way you will be at any given point in your exestance

See what I wrote about God controlling nature AND nurture. There is your answer

[magneticgoop]

ok see your side of the argument i was totally misunderstanding.

why does it make you mad to hear people thanking God? is it impossible to believe that he can't have a hand in events and circumstance?

[WalrusesRN]

ok see your side of the argument i was totally misunderstanding.

why does it make you mad to hear people thanking God? is it impossible to believe that he can't have a hand in events and circumstance?

I didn't say it makes me mad, I said it irks me. It's not impossible, it's just an assumption with no evidence whatsoever, and I don't have any problem with it whatsoever as long as they thank God to God and not to me. Maybe I'm just indignant at the fact that where I live, Christians often publicly say things related to God and I cannot voice my true opinion without people thinking the worst of me.

[magneticgoop]

ok see your side of the argument i was totally misunderstanding.

why does it make you mad to hear people thanking God? is it impossible to believe that he can't have a hand in events and circumstance?

I didn't say it makes me mad, I said it irks me. It's not impossible, it's just an assumption with no evidence whatsoever, and I don't have any problem with it whatsoever as long as they thank God to God and not to me. Maybe I'm just indignant at the fact that where I live, Christians often publicly say things related to God and I cannot voice my true opinion without people thinking the worst of me.

ok got it that makes sense i think most people say it because of relief and lack of a better person to thank "thank Lawrence Welk the baby is ok" doesnt really cut it

[magneticgoop]

Basically Christianity makes me a better person. I have realized mistakes I have made and character flaws and worked on them. If it turns out to be a hoax then it is a great set of rule to live your life by to have a more gratifying existence.

[Jehan]

I myself do not think that many people overlook these things on purpose, I think that they are raised to naturally disagree with and mistrust anyone who tells them things that go against their religion. It is not hard for me to think low enough of people that they would believe something that has no proof, when, by definition, faith requires no proof, and more than just Christians have faith in higher things. I also see on the news every day that people kill each other in the name of religion, and I doubt very much that a God would want people killing each other because they believed different things about him. If he creates us, then surely making the whole world one, true faith would be better, no? And just because someone has survived to a certain age does not mean that they have an extremely high intelligence level, and many could be swayed. They would fall lure to the promise of immortality in heaven. All they have to do is confess, no matter how horrible of a person they have been. I also find it hard to believe that people who were good would be banished to hell for simply not believing in God, who, supoosedly, created them and the way they think in the first place. As for myself, I consider myself blessed (no pun intended) with the fortune to have been raised in a more relaxed religious environment, that did not press upon me things which I do not think can possibly have been. How can the earth have been created within thousands of years when carbon-dating show fossils millions of years old? I harbor no grudges against Christians or other believers. I live in Louisiana. Do you know how many non-believers you find in Louisiana? Not many, let me tell you. I dislike the bible for its content, because I think that doing things for false reasons can lead to catastrophe. If you really think that haven't thought about my own beliefs, you are sadly mistaken my friend. Earlier in my life I wanted to believe in God, just so that I wouldn't feel out of place every time someone said a prayer. But I never was convinced, because there were too many holes in the argument and the alternate explanation too likely to be false. Now I would like to hear why you have the right to question my beliefs. Why do you believe as you do? I have answered your questions, and I now ask you to answer mine.

I agree completely with the bolded part, you will find no disagreement with that statement here.
good answers, though if i came off as questioning your beliefs then i apologise, that was not my intention, i was questioning your questioning of Christianity however, but that's not even important. I think everyone has a right to question someone else's beliefs, as you have questioned mine i think in this thread, people however don't have the right to question ones right to that belief. I believe as i do, because of what i have seen and heard, and because of what i have found for myself, i guess there are some things which you know your mind is capable of inventing, and other things which i know it is not capable of creating on is own, if i find both then i know something else is at play here. I believe in Christ because i have encountered him for myself, not because of how i was brought up although that did help. Is that a sufficient answer? It comes off as short but i find it hard to convey some things in writing.

[WalrusesRN]

I agree completely with the bolded part, you will find no disagreement with that statement here.
good answers, though if i came off as questioning your beliefs then i apologise, that was not my intention, i was questioning your questioning of Christianity however, but that's not even important. I think everyone has a right to question someone else's beliefs, as you have questioned mine i think in this thread, people however don't have the right to question ones right to that belief. I believe as i do, because of what i have seen and heard, and because of what i have found for myself, i guess there are some things which you know your mind is capable of inventing, and other things which i know it is not capable of creating on is own, if i find both then i know something else is at play here. I believe in Christ because i have encountered him for myself, not because of how i was brought up although that did help. Is that a sufficient answer? It comes off as short but i find it hard to convey some things in writing.

Do you mind me asking how you have encountered Christ? I completely understand if you would rather keep your personal experiences to yourself, as religion is a personal subject, but I never have encountered anything that I couldn't explain myself, and I am interested in what convinces people. I often hear people say things along the lines of encountering Christ, as if proof was shown to them, and I would like to know what it means.

[magneticgoop]

I agree completely with the bolded part, you will find no disagreement with that statement here.
good answers, though if i came off as questioning your beliefs then i apologise, that was not my intention, i was questioning your questioning of Christianity however, but that's not even important. I think everyone has a right to question someone else's beliefs, as you have questioned mine i think in this thread, people however don't have the right to question ones right to that belief. I believe as i do, because of what i have seen and heard, and because of what i have found for myself, i guess there are some things which you know your mind is capable of inventing, and other things which i know it is not capable of creating on is own, if i find both then i know something else is at play here. I believe in Christ because i have encountered him for myself, not because of how i was brought up although that did help. Is that a sufficient answer? It comes off as short but i find it hard to convey some things in writing.

Do you mind me asking how you have encountered Christ? I completely understand if you would rather keep your personal experiences to yourself, as religion is a personal subject, but I never have encountered anything that I couldn't explain myself, and I am interested in what convinces people. I often hear people say things along the lines of encountering Christ, as if proof was shown to them, and I would like to know what it means.

i know this wasn't directed at me and may sound a little hippie-ish but an encounter with God is something that cannot be explained. It's more of a feeling, kinda like your conscience when he wants you do do something and is usually way outside of what you would ever think abut doing. one i had was i felt like i should give a total stranger on the street $20, i just glanced at her and then all of a sudden i just felt it on my heart to do this. I never give money to anyone and it was way outside of what i would ever think about doing. when you do these things you just fell like the way that we were supposed to turn out and this warm sense of content just overwhelms you. when he talks to you you know it but it cannot be described

[The Weird One]

and that , if it is true (I will say neither one way or the other) what goes in the bible was decided by the victors of a power struggle that erupted between two sects of christianity after the fall of the roman empire.

oh please that is from the da vinci code btw i read the book it was good but totally inaccurate biblically and historically

BULL SHIT

I got that from multiple sources, one, a history channel documentary
two: a New York Times Up Front [a magazine distributed by the new york times] article

please explain

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)

you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"

That is the basis of my argument.

[Jehan]

yeah i cant give you proof, and if you feel ripped off by that answer i dont blame you, my belief in Christ is my proof, but there are things like people being healed, which i think cant be explained by science. I can sort of describe the path i went down, I look at the world around me and see absolute perfection in creation, every constant in the universe, boltzmann, planck's and so forth, just makes me believe that the universe is engineered to be the way it is, so from this i have no doubts of the existence of God, whether you follow this line of argument or the anthropic principle is a matter of choice, not science. Then based on my belief in God, i consider it illogical that God wouldn't interact with the world, and to have the right to judge us and what we do. I also considered the things which all humans have in common, well most of us, the things which outrage us all, like child soldiers, and so i come to the belief in a natural order of justice, a natural sense of what is right and wrong which we all have. Then i considered all the religions and only one taught that there is a natural order of right and wrong ingrained in us all, that the standard of God is higher than anything we can attain, and that because God loved His creation so much, He gave up His most treasured Son, in order to save it. But i think if you are open to Christ and you search for Him, you will find Him, i have no doubts.

[WalrusesRN]

I agree completely with the bolded part, you will find no disagreement with that statement here.
good answers, though if i came off as questioning your beliefs then i apologise, that was not my intention, i was questioning your questioning of Christianity however, but that's not even important. I think everyone has a right to question someone else's beliefs, as you have questioned mine i think in this thread, people however don't have the right to question ones right to that belief. I believe as i do, because of what i have seen and heard, and because of what i have found for myself, i guess there are some things which you know your mind is capable of inventing, and other things which i know it is not capable of creating on is own, if i find both then i know something else is at play here. I believe in Christ because i have encountered him for myself, not because of how i was brought up although that did help. Is that a sufficient answer? It comes off as short but i find it hard to convey some things in writing.

Do you mind me asking how you have encountered Christ? I completely understand if you would rather keep your personal experiences to yourself, as religion is a personal subject, but I never have encountered anything that I couldn't explain myself, and I am interested in what convinces people. I often hear people say things along the lines of encountering Christ, as if proof was shown to them, and I would like to know what it means.

i know this wasn't directed at me and may sound a little hippie-ish but an encounter with God is something that cannot be explained. It's more of a feeling, kinda like your conscience when he wants you do do something and is usually way outside of what you would ever think abut doing. one i had was i felt like i should give a total stranger on the street $20, i just glanced at her and then all of a sudden i just felt it on my heart to do this. I never give money to anyone and it was way outside of what i would ever think about doing. when you do these things you just fell like the way that we were supposed to turn out and this warm sense of content just overwhelms you. when he talks to you you know it but it cannot be described

And you just "know" it was God? Interesting . . . I've had unusual compulsions before, but I never considered the possibility of an outside source. However, as I say, I have never known it was God, so it probably wasn't in the first place. Forgive me for being skeptical, I have had no supernatural occurences in my life. If I am wrong (I say this because I believe that we could all be wrong about anything at any time) then feel sorry for me, because I will be spending my afterlife in hell, despite feeling that I've done more good than harm. If I am right, feel almost as bad because I will cease to exist altogether.

[magneticgoop]

I agree completely with the bolded part, you will find no disagreement with that statement here.
good answers, though if i came off as questioning your beliefs then i apologise, that was not my intention, i was questioning your questioning of Christianity however, but that's not even important. I think everyone has a right to question someone else's beliefs, as you have questioned mine i think in this thread, people however don't have the right to question ones right to that belief. I believe as i do, because of what i have seen and heard, and because of what i have found for myself, i guess there are some things which you know your mind is capable of inventing, and other things which i know it is not capable of creating on is own, if i find both then i know something else is at play here. I believe in Christ because i have encountered him for myself, not because of how i was brought up although that did help. Is that a sufficient answer? It comes off as short but i find it hard to convey some things in writing.

Do you mind me asking how you have encountered Christ? I completely understand if you would rather keep your personal experiences to yourself, as religion is a personal subject, but I never have encountered anything that I couldn't explain myself, and I am interested in what convinces people. I often hear people say things along the lines of encountering Christ, as if proof was shown to them, and I would like to know what it means.

i know this wasn't directed at me and may sound a little hippie-ish but an encounter with God is something that cannot be explained. It's more of a feeling, kinda like your conscience when he wants you do do something and is usually way outside of what you would ever think abut doing. one i had was i felt like i should give a total stranger on the street $20, i just glanced at her and then all of a sudden i just felt it on my heart to do this. I never give money to anyone and it was way outside of what i would ever think about doing. when you do these things you just fell like the way that we were supposed to turn out and this warm sense of content just overwhelms you. when he talks to you you know it but it cannot be described

And you just "know" it was God? Interesting . . . I've had unusual compulsions before, but I never considered the possibility of an outside source. However, as I say, I have never known it was God, so it probably wasn't in the first place. Forgive me for being skeptical, I have had no supernatural occurences in my life. If I am wrong (I say this because I believe that we could all be wrong about anything at any time) then feel sorry for me, because I will be spending my afterlife in hell, despite feeling that I've done more good than harm. If I am right, feel almost as bad because I will cease to exist altogether.

if in church or something have you ever had this weird feeling that you were supposed to do something that really scared you to do? if so that may be what i am talking about

[vuDore]

Do you mind me asking how you have encountered Christ? I completely understand if you would rather keep your personal experiences to yourself, as religion is a personal subject, but I never have encountered anything that I couldn't explain myself, and I am interested in what convinces people. I often hear people say things along the lines of encountering Christ, as if proof was shown to them, and I would like to know what it means.

If you don't mind me answering this question as well, I'd like to throw my hat into the discussion.

Encountering Christ is a result of the Holy Spirit's movement within the soul of a person. People encounter Christ every day, I believe, but those that are seeking for these encounters and are faithful to the relationship created as a Christian are the ones most impacted by these encounters. I often find myself not giving enough credit to God, though, shrugging off occurrences as just the "way things are." I know I am challenged to faithfully trust God has His hand in my every living moment, and learning this and using this wisdom is when we gain the most from our encounters. Sometimes, things are abrupt, in your face, like the conversion of Saul. But just as amazing is the belief of a child in a small church or that I woke up today. My proof is that I live for Him.

[magneticgoop]

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)

you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"

That is the basis of my argument.

that is davinci code but in short gnostic gospels were inconsistent with what was already known about God. they were heretical books that were thrown out gnostic are not christains, they are heretics you will say this proves your point further but they are totally inconsistent with the rest of the bible.

[The Weird One]

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)

you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"

That is the basis of my argument.

that is davinci code but in short gnostic gospels were inconsistent with what was already known about God. they were heretical books that were thrown out gnostic are not christains, they are heretics you will say this proves your point further but they are totally inconsistent with the rest of the bible.

you keep on saying that I get my argument from the da vinci code, would you like me to find links that would convince you otherwise!?!

[WalrusesRN]

yeah i cant give you proof, and if you feel ripped off by that answer i dont blame you, my belief in Christ is my proof, but there are things like people being healed, which i think cant be explained by science. I can sort of describe the path i went down, I look at the world around me and see absolute perfection in creation, every constant in the universe, boltzmann, planck's and so forth, just makes me believe that the universe is engineered to be the way it is, so from this i have no doubts of the existence of God, whether you follow this line of argument or the anthropic principle is a matter of choice, not science. Then based on my belief in God, i consider it illogical that God wouldn't interact with the world, and to have the right to judge us and what we do. I also considered the things which all humans have in common, well most of us, the things which outrage us all, like child soldiers, and so i come to the belief in a natural order of justice, a natural sense of what is right and wrong which we all have. Then i considered all the religions and only one taught that there is a natural order of right and wrong ingrained in us all, that the standard of God is higher than anything we can attain, and that because God loved His creation so much, He gave up His most treasured Son, in order to save it. But i think if you are open to Christ and you search for Him, you will find Him, i have no doubts.

You know, it's interesting the way people look at things. When I have thought about the world, I haven't seen perfection. I have seen good certainly, but bad as well. I don't think that a being created what exists, I think that what existed created every being that exists. I think explaining existence with God only makes things more complicated. For my first question I would naturally ask myself afterwards would be, "All right, if God created everything, who or what created God?" To me, by all my knowledge of things that happen, an unlimited power which no human truly understands the workings of does not fit with everything else I have seen in life. It only creates more questions that no one has the answer to. So an alternate answer to the beginning question of how existence came to be, makes much more sense to me than the unlimited questions that the idea of God creates.

[CrazyAnglican]

CrazyAnglican, I appreciate your critic. It seemed well thought out and honest. I don't agree with everything you said, but I respect your point of view and I am glad somebody finally broke down my argument rather than contradicting it blindly with no explanation. You say that you believe in an all-powerful God who is merely a guide in our lives, that he may give us some of our morals, but the rest could come from our experience in life (nature vs nurture). I was arguing against those that believe God is all-powerful and my definition of all-knowing, which includes knowing which actions people will take. Even if part of morals are put in you by God, and the rest by your experiences, the God I was arguing against would know how a person would turn out because he would know what that person would encounter in life, along with other people, and know how their morals thus far would make them respond, and he would also know how that event would shape the person's morals, and so God would know what they did in the next decision, how that shaped their morals and so on and so forth. You see, this way, the nature vs. nurture morals debate doesn't matter because God would know and have control over how both would affect a human being. This includes human being interaction assuming that God created all human beings and followed them and knew all about them.
The idea of a God that is not both all-knowing and all-powerful is one that is very hard to disprove, because what God would have been involved in we would not know. This is why people thanking God repeatedly for good things happening to them irks me. For them to be absolutely sure that God was the cause of the good occurence, they would have to believe that God was both all-powerful and all-knowing, and therefore responsible for any bad things that happen to them as well. I do know many people who believe in a God who is not all-powerful and all-knowing, and I accept their belief as a possibility (if a minute one in my opinion) and I don't bother them or become upset at all unless they repeatedly mention things about God that I disagree with in my presence.
Your analogy to a car seems somewhat ridiculous to me, because if the car could think and move for itself, with specific specs to do this, as humans can and have specific qualities, then we just arrive back at the original question in the first place.

I am sorry for responding since you generally avoid this topic, but I have always thought that rational discussion can only lead to further knowledge.

Hmmm. Sorry that you feel out of place when people speak of God. It seems that you feel people will think less of you for expressing your thoughts. For what its worth, I've found the ones that matter to me think more of me for expressing mine. As far as religion goes, I've debated with atheists, meditated with Zen Buddhists, compared my fasts with Muslims & offered my living room for them to pray in, and sat in on Wiccan gatherings. Christianity works for me; it's what I know and understand. If somone else disagrees, it doesn't bother me.
The people who love you will meet you where you are (not necessarily settle for you staying there), and you'll know them by disagreeing and seeing how the act. I'm not going to go anywhere to hide my faith, it's nothing to be ashamed of, but neither am I going to hinder or berate you for yours.

Cheers guys,

Oh and if this discussion really does produce the true image of God, Let's publish it & I want my cut.

[Jehan]

well when i said i see perfection i meant the physical universe, most definitely not the people in the world, that's from what I've read in physics, I've always considered from the point of the big bang, if that is the point of creation, and if as i believe God was the cause of it, then that means He Himself exists outside of time, as such a beginning is not necessary and even though i just said that, it is completely incomprehensible to me to contemplate a being with no beginning, but it stands to reason that if something creates time, it wont be limited by it. Also i guess i inherently have no qualms following a God whom i cannot comprehend, if i could comprehend him i would feel a bit ripped off, because i know i have an extremely limited mind.
I have one more proof in my mind, and that is love, i see the connections between human beings which are so irrational sometimes yet they exist, this force within us which compels us towards one another, the strong desire to be with others, that feeling you get when you are amongst family and friends, that is the same feeling i get when i encounter Christ, and i will usually be alone when i do, this i cannot explain any other way.

[magneticgoop]

after the fall of the roman empire, two key sects of christianity warred over who was right, (much like the present day middle east after the fall of the ottoman empire) one was the gnostics (you know, all those books that have been deemed false just because some random member of the clergy) didn't like what they said. the other sect, was the winning one (not sure of the name)

you have heard the saying: "History is written by the victors"

That is the basis of my argument.

that is davinci code but in short gnostic gospels were inconsistent with what was already known about God. they were heretical books that were thrown out gnostic are not christains, they are heretics you will say this proves your point further but they are totally inconsistent with the rest of the bible.

you keep on saying that I get my argument from the da vinci code, would you like me to find links that would convince you otherwise!?!

it is from the davinci code which is based on an old gnostic heresy

[WalrusesRN]

If you don't mind me answering this question as well, I'd like to throw my hat into the discussion.

Encountering Christ is a result of the Holy Spirit's movement within the soul of a person. People encounter Christ every day, I believe, but those that are seeking for these encounters and are faithful to the relationship created as a Christian are the ones most impacted by these encounters. I often find myself not giving enough credit to God, though, shrugging off occurrences as just the "way things are." I know I am challenged to faithfully trust God has His hand in my every living moment, and learning this and using this wisdom is when we gain the most from our encounters. Sometimes, things are abrupt, in your face, like the conversion of Saul. But just as amazing is the belief of a child in a small church or that I woke up today. My proof is that I live for Him.

Perhaps one of the reasons I do not think there is a God is because, of my own situation. You see, I really do not feel as if I have had a choice in the matter as far as believing in superior beings. I have always found too many holes in the idea and thought it far more likely that God was a creation of the human mind to keep itself at ease. But, as I have been atheist for a while, this thought was added to my reasoning. Why would a God not want me to believe in him? It doesn't make much sense to me, but hopefully, I'm supposed to be atheist according to his plan, and he might save a spot in heaven for me anyway. I don't really believe it, but it would be better than not existing when I die.

But, more importantly, Brawl is going to be SWEEEEETTTT . . .