The Agnostic Thread

[Neutrino]

no, just zero volume, and like a said, if there are no dimensions, or they are still infinitely curved along with the other 7 dimensions(M theory) then there can be no volume, so density is infinite.

Hmm, your just designing this to confuse me, aren't you...

You seem to be basing your theories off the equasion, while I am using the more common sence definition...

[Jehan]

yeah i tend to do that, but really you can't imagine a point of no volume, its hard to apply common sense to something which no ever has or will encounter, but i'm going to start busting out wikipedia articles soon, like now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero#Formal_interpretation

ii don't apply common sense to this because i don't think it was designed to cope with a lack of spatial dimensions.

[Neutrino]

yeah i tend to do that, but really you can't imagine a point of no volume, its hard to apply common sense to something which no ever has or will encounter, but i'm going to start busting out wikipedia articles soon, like now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero#Formal_interpretation

ii don't apply common sense to this because i don't think it was designed to cope with a lack of spatial dimensions.

Hmmm, ok, your Wikipedia article has convinced me. Jehan wins. The singularity did have infinite density.

[Jehan]

its surprisingly reliable on things to do with physics, maths and chemistry, probably because people who are retarded enough to post false information don't know these topics exist.

[Neutrino]

its surprisingly reliable on things to do with physics, maths and chemistry, probably because people who are retarded enough to post false information don't know these topics exist.

Yep. Never trust it's information on anything famous, though

[OnlyAmbrose]

Of course, even this argument collapses on itself because infinite doesn't exist. And I don't believe anyone here subscribes to the idea that matter is infinite anyawys.

How can god exist if infinity is impossible?

As I've said before, both infinity and God are logically impossible. Point is, however, that what atheists and theists have in common is a belief in a logical impossibility.

The only reason infinity seems so impossible to everyone is that our homonid forebrains were designed to cope with open savannah and not complex mathamatics

Infinity isn't possible. It's not possible in mathematics, and it's not possible in logic. If we're talking about the age of Everything, and if we're talking about it in purely secular terms, the only feasible explanation is that it's infinity years old, which isn't logically possible. Every effect must have a cause.

infinity / infinity is undefined. Not zero, not one, not infinity, just undefined. But like Jehan said, if you're using infinity as a "mathematical construct" (in heavycola's words) in a derivative problem, then there are methods (most notably l'hopital's rule) to determine what infinity / infinity equals. In such problems, the answer can be anything: 0, 1, 3/4, 7, 8, 9.143, infinity, you name it. For our purposes, it's best just to call it undefined.

To me, infinity / infinity = infinity seems like the most logical answer to me. If infinity x infinity = infinity, then why should / be any different?

Infinity is much like 1 in that respect, oddly.

I'm not sure you fully understand the nature of infinity in mathematics. You can't treat it like a real number.

infinity x infinity = infinity makes plenty of sense - a number that is >1 will always increase when squared, so the biggest number ever times the biggest number ever is just going to be the biggest-er number ever.

Infinity / infinity is way more complicated. With any real number (with the exception of 0), if you divide it by itself you will get 1. 2/2 = 1. 3/3 = 1.

Infinity is a bit different, because it's not a number that we can peg with a value, so we can't say that it is one. Similarly, we can't say that it's infinity, because if we did, that would mean the numerator is greater than the denominator.

But how can we say that the numerator in infinity / infinity is greater than the denominator? They're both infinity. And since we can't peg infinity with a value, we can't say which is greater, because they're not numbers. They're mathematical concepts.

[Neutrino]

As I've said before, both infinity and God are logically impossible. Point is, however, that what atheists and theists have in common is a belief in a logical impossibility.

Dosen't it make it a bit hard to believe in god if you admit that he is physically impossible?

Infinity isn't possible. It's not possible in mathematics, and it's not possible in logic. If we're talking about the age of Everything, and if we're talking about it in purely secular terms, the only feasible explanation is that it's infinity years old, which isn't logically possible. Every effect must have a cause.

All human thinking

Just because it was the way you were designed to think, dosen't make it true. Human minds were designed (whether by evolution or god, or something else) to cope with the open savannah; it's concept of mathamatics is purely limited to things that are likely to come up in a savannah situation (1 lion, 2 lion, 3 lion, 4.). Contemplation of the nature of infinity is not likely to be one of these things.
Cause and effect is also hard-wired into the human mind. Unfortunatly for the sanity of future scientists, it is unlikely that cause and effect will hold true in all situations (very high or low temperature physics does a whole lot of wierd things to established laws, not to mention the effect Quantum Theory has on things! ).

[AlgyTaylor]

That's surely because any laws of physics can only be applied to things that we can measure accurately. If you only have 1/10th of a picture then obviously any conclusions you draw about the whole picture might be wrong, but you can apply laws to that small portion of the whole - essentially a localised case scenario of an overall mathematical/scientific problem.

Basically what I'm saying is that physics not holding true for very high/very low/quantum physics is purely because we aren't in a position to be able to measure enough of the surrounding values to be able to draw up a way of describing it ... yet.


Also, I don't accept that contemplation of the nature of infinity is even mathematical. Essentially EVERYTHING can have a number, albeit a REALLY high one in some cases (eg how many grains of sand on a beach - you could say it's "infinity", because realistically you can't count them, but in actual fact there's a finite amount of grains of sand there).

Infinity, in mathematical terms, doesn't exist IMO.

[vtmarik]

That's surely because any laws of physics can only be applied to things that we can measure accurately. If you only have 1/10th of a picture then obviously any conclusions you draw about the whole picture might be wrong, but you can apply laws to that small portion of the whole - essentially a localised case scenario of an overall mathematical/scientific problem.

Basically what I'm saying is that physics not holding true for very high/very low/quantum physics is purely because we aren't in a position to be able to measure enough of the surrounding values to be able to draw up a way of describing it ... yet.


Also, I don't accept that contemplation of the nature of infinity is even mathematical. Essentially EVERYTHING can have a number, albeit a REALLY high one in some cases (eg how many grains of sand on a beach - you could say it's "infinity", because realistically you can't count them, but in actual fact there's a finite amount of grains of sand there).

Infinity, in mathematical terms, doesn't exist IMO.

Infinity isn't a measurable number, it's the logical extreme of counting. It's a quick way of saying "this number, and all potential integers following it." It's a shortcut, like saying e instead of 2.718281828459045235360287471352....

[AlgyTaylor]

Ah, now I've been speaking to a maths grad about this and he says that infinity isn't a number, it's just used as an unbound limit (in maths).

[OnlyAmbrose]

Ah, now I've been speaking to a maths grad about this and he says that infinity isn't a number, it's just used as an unbound limit (in maths).

'

Perfect way of putting it.

Dosen't it make it a bit hard to believe in god if you admit that he is physically impossible?

Logically impossible. But no, actually it doesn't. My thinking on the matter of existence has really boiled down to this- by all logical arguments, it never should have happened in the first place. That means that something illogical happened for us to come about. God is certainly one of those illogical options, and personal experiences have further convinced me that that option is the right one.

Cause and effect is also hard-wired into the human mind. Unfortunatly for the sanity of future scientists, it is unlikely that cause and effect will hold true in all situations (very high or low temperature physics does a whole lot of wierd things to established laws, not to mention the effect Quantum Theory has on things!

Firstly, if cause and effect breaks down, then we may as well not even try to speculate on anything. Saying that something came from nothing is even more illogical than saying that there is a God.

Secondly, these "weird things" you are describing all have a cause: high and low temperature, so I'm not sure I grasp the meaning of your examples.

[Riao]

Logically impossible. But no, actually it doesn't. My thinking on the matter of existence has really boiled down to this- by all logical arguments, it never should have happened in the first place. That means that something illogical happened for us to come about. God is certainly one of those illogical options, and personal experiences have further convinced me that that option is the right one.

I know I have brought this up before, but I'm still uncertain why you are convinced that the illogical option for you is the Christian God. I understand that you were brought up Catholic and that had a large influence on you, but you could have changed your mind. I was brought up Christian, but obviously that just didn't take.

I don't mean to compare our situations... Let me put it another way: To have these conversations at 17 (leading the conversation, really) you obviously have an intelligence that is much higher than average (I can't imagine what high school is like for you -- it must be a bitch) I only hesitate to use the "g" word because I haven't had or read enough of your conversations to use that judgment. My point is that you don't seem to me to be the type to believe something unless you have good reason... Would it be too personal a question to ask what that reason is?

(That's the type I am, actually, but in reading all this I'm beginning to wonder if the problem is that I'm simply lacking the proper knowledge to find that reason).

[OnlyAmbrose]

What are you indicating that theists can't be smart?

On a more serious note, no, it's not too personal to share, though there always follows a certain degree of ridicule when Christians on this forum share their faith experiences in public. Hasn't really stopped us, but it's just the fact.

And it's a long story, so if you're not interested, I'd recommend you skip this post. This is mostly for Riao, since he's the only one who seems to be interested.

In any event, I'll go into my personal experience with the Christian God then...

In my earlier years I went to Sunday school and church because I was forced to- you can't expect a 6 year old to be excited over something he can't even see. Like I said, I was brought up Catholic, but it was by two parents who hadn't had a great Catholic upbringing themselves. Knowing they couldn't teach me about the faith on their own, but hoping that I'd get a better religious education than they got, they tried to get me excited about sunday school.

I was a little "above" the garbage they had us do in Sunday school - coloring pictures, reading chapter after chapter which basically said the same darned thing (Jesus loves you, so be nice to everyone!). Though I wasn't using the exact words at the time, I couldn't stand how dumb this superficial nonsense was. In 2nd grade I told my parents that I was bored and already knew all the prayers they were teaching us, and asked if I could drop out of Sunday school.

They agreed, so unlike my peers, I just started going to Mass with the family instead of sitting in a classroom with kids who still couldn't read trying to help them memorize the Hail Mary.

That's where my self-education started. Don't get me wrong- I certainly wasn't motivated by a love of God at that point (He remained more of an abstract concept to my childlike mind than anything else), but rather, a desire to know stuff. I was smart as an elementary schooler, and took a lot of pleasure in knowing things.

So I started reading the Bible on my own. Learning about different religions. Reading about the lives of some of the saints. My knowledge of religion skyrocketed. The real deep-down faith would start to develop later.

In the 5th grade my parents sent me to a week-long boarding-school summer camp at an Abbey. I can't emphasize enough how much that camp did for me. Not only was it loads of fun with the games and such, (imagine game of capture the flag with 200 people!) but I learned even more in-depth stuff about Catholicism than before. Most importantly, for the first time ever I got a real deep-down feel that God existed. I think it was the atmosphere of the place.

I returned to the abbey every summer until I was 15. My belief got stronger every time. Why? A few reasons, I think. Firstly, I always felt at peace there. Perhaps more importantly was the Sacrament of Reconciliation- or "Confession", as it is popularly known. As I got into my teen years, I found that my sins had started escalating and happening more frequently. Yet there was nothing like the feeling after Confession. Here's where I fear I may be ridiculed, but every time I go to Confession, especially at the abbey, I wouldn't mind dying right afterwards.

Of course, this was all just feelings. When I was in a cynical mood, I could pass off the great feelings and peace I got from the abbey off as just a result of the environment. There was still doubt in my mind.

That changed the summer before my sophomore year in High School. I went to a weekend retreat sponsored by the Franciscan University of Steubenville with my youth group.

The weekend itself is lot of fun, but Saturday night is when the most amazing part comes. Adoration.

As a brief summary of what Adoration is, it's basically when a priest takes the Eucharist (the bread which Catholics believe is the true body of Christ), places it in a gold case called the monstrance, and gives a blessing called "Benediction."

I'll try to set the scene at Stebenville for you.

We were all inside the Cox Arena, which is an enormous sports arena on San Diego State University. In the middle was a stage, on which the Catholic musician Matt Maher and his band was playing quiet worship music as the 5,000 teenagers sat in their seats in anticipation. Everyone had heard about Adoration- we all knew that amazing things were about to happen, because amazing things have happened every year during this time on Saturday. And we had spent the day in preparation, opening our souls by singing even when we thought it might be embarrassing.

A priest, flanked by several others, walked into the arena, carrying a gorgeous golden monstrance, inside of which was the Eucharist. 5,000 people stood from their seats at the same time, and sang a glorious song of praise, the lyrics projected onto mammoth screens before us. He placed it on the altar, and 5,000 people knelt. A girl several sections away started crying.

After several moments, the priest stood up, took the monstrance, and began processing through the entire arena, section by section, giving a blessing to the tune of our quiet hymns. People all around me were crying, laughing, doing all manner of strange things. Perhaps the most crazy thing I witnessed someone else doing was a friend speaking in tongues.

As the monstrance approached, I broke down. I hadn't cried in years, but here I was, sobbing like a girl. I wasn't quite sure why- I wasn't quite happy and I wasn't quite sad. It was an odd feeling. I was thinking of how wonderful it was that I felt this, that I had this weekend, yet how horrible it was that so many people wouldn't. A bit of a paradox, but a feeling I've never had before.

The entire procession took about an hour. By the end the girl on my left and the guy on my right were both supporting me, and both were shedding tears themselves.

I'm not generally the sentimental type. This was such a change in behavior for me that in retrospect it's hard to realize that it was me there. But something happened, there was something there, and every single one of the 5,000 present will attest to it. We walked out of that arena in silence, and it was clear by the time we got back to our dorms that my experience wasn't exclusive only to me- it was mutual among all my friends.

God showed Himself to me that night, and I haven't doubted since. I've tried, though. At times when I fell into deep sin since then, I've tried to doubt God, so ashamed was I of what I had done. I tried to reason out that God doesn't exist, but it's never worked. Ever since that retreat, I haven't been able to doubt- not sure how to explain it other than that it's just a fact in my mind.

Anyways, that's my story. I know a lot of it sounds dramatized, but I give my word that I did my best to explain these experiences I've had honestly.

And remember, you asked.

[Riao]

What are you indicating that theists can't be smart?

Of course not. Einstein believed in God, being Jewish. One of my favourite quotes from him is "I want to understand God's thoughts." I defy anyone to say that Einstein wasn't intelligent.

On a more serious note, no, it's not too personal to share, though there always follows a certain degree of ridicule when Christians on this forum share their faith experiences in public. Hasn't really stopped us, but it's just the fact.

...

Here's where I fear I may be ridiculed, but every time I go to Confession, especially at the abbey, I wouldn't mind dying right afterwards.

You're certainly not going to get any ridicule from me. How could I call myself an agnostic if I ridicule someone who actually has a belief? To put this another way, my handle, Riao, is an acromym. It stands for Reality Is An Opinion. I apply this statement to myself as well as for others. It's a reminder of sorts that keeps me humble.

I'm not generally the sentimental type. This was such a change in behavior for me that in retrospect it's hard to realize that it was me there. But something happened, there was something there, and every single one of the 5,000 present will attest to it. We walked out of that arena in silence, and it was clear by the time we got back to our dorms that my experience wasn't exclusive only to me- it was mutual among all my friends.

God showed Himself to me that night, and I haven't doubted since. I've tried, though. At times when I fell into deep sin since then, I've tried to doubt God, so ashamed was I of what I had done. I tried to reason out that God doesn't exist, but it's never worked. Ever since that retreat, I haven't been able to doubt- not sure how to explain it other than that it's just a fact in my mind.

Anyways, that's my story. I know a lot of it sounds dramatized, but I give my word that I did my best to explain these experiences I've had honestly.

And remember, you asked.

I only edited the quote to keep from cluttering the board, not to take away from it's emphasis.

Yes I did ask, and thank you for sharing that. I had an experience myself that usually draws ridicule from theists as well as atheists. I used to be an atheist myself, but I was convinced otherwise. I've just been opened up to the endless possibilities of reality itself, and I've become convinced that whatever the truth is (or to go along with the theme of this thread, how something came from nothing), no one will ever know for sure (this is not detract from faith. I only mean that solid evidence will never surface so there will always be logical doubt). My personal theory stems from 2 sources, the first is from Isaak Neuton: by breaking everything down to its smllest components you can understand the workings of everything. The second comes from the oldest known philosphy, Taoism. Taoism looks at the world in very holistic way (the opposite of Neutonian) to understand how it works. These small components must be looked at in the relationship they have with all the other components around them... how their properties affect others, and in turn how others affect them, singularly and in groups. And of course how larger groups interact with other large groups, groups of groups etc. until you're looking at absolutly everything. It's like looking at human behavior really, understanding the actions of nations.

Now I'm rambling. Anyway, I've always had an interest in different belief systems, and where those beliefs come from so thanks again for sharing yours.

<I'm in a hurry right now, so I will edit for spelling later>

[luns101]

Ya im Agnostic to

But you did leave room for belief in God if the Cubs win the World Series...remember? I'm going to hold you to that.

[bBurandt]

i'm afraid diesm is the most logical religion.

[Iliad]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

[Aegnor]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

Really? Did you check it by yourself? It's just an hypothesis.

[CrazyAnglican]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

So it's a mystery to us, Eh?

Doh! I'm sorry I said I was going to stay out of this one. Debate away, sorry for the intrusion.

[Jenos Ridan]

What are you indicating that theists can't be smart?

Of course not. Einstein believed in God, being Jewish. One of my favourite quotes from him is "I want to understand God's thoughts." I defy anyone to say that Einstein wasn't intelligent.

'Though raised Jewish, he was far from a devout member. In fact, until his work on relativaty he was more of an athiest. His work led him to what he saw as an impossibity; the universe having a begining. He eventually became a Deist, basically saying "I can see were a higher power, a 'Creator', exists but it is not a personnal deity and doesn't affect me directly". And if somehow I'm in error, Guiscard came feel free to come in here and tear my post to shreds .

[vtmarik]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

So it's a mystery to us, Eh?

Doh! I'm sorry I said I was going to stay out of this one. Debate away, sorry for the intrusion.

Infinity is flat, and uninteresting.

Why? Because to view infinity, all you see is a flat landscape made up of everything in the whole of existence at the same exact time. Kinda like how you zoom out of a number line enough times and instead of dashes on a line it just looks like one solid bar.

[Iliad]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

So it's a mystery to us, Eh?

Doh! I'm sorry I said I was going to stay out of this one. Debate away, sorry for the intrusion.

Infinity is flat, and uninteresting.

Why? Because to view infinity, all you see is a flat landscape made up of everything in the whole of existence at the same exact time. Kinda like how you zoom out of a number line enough times and instead of dashes on a line it just looks like one solid bar.

Pretty good explanation there vt

[Jehan]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

So it's a mystery to us, Eh?

Doh! I'm sorry I said I was going to stay out of this one. Debate away, sorry for the intrusion.

Infinity is flat, and uninteresting.

Why? Because to view infinity, all you see is a flat landscape made up of everything in the whole of existence at the same exact time. Kinda like how you zoom out of a number line enough times and instead of dashes on a line it just looks like one solid bar.

thats a limitation of resolution, but yeah your right, you approach infinity and it would take an infinite mind to comprehend such a thing.
Another interesting way to view the weirdness of infinity to consider an infinite sheet, if you dont shoot some kind of light at it you have no way of telling just how far away from it you are. that always boggles my mind.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

And what law of science are you citing which states that space is infinite?

And let's define space. Space is nothing. So if it's possible for there to be an infinite amount of space in the universe, all you're really saying is that there is an infinite amount of nothing. Which is zero. lol, back to this thread

[Simonov]

Infinity is possible. We just can't really understand it. Space is infinite.

And what law of science are you citing which states that space is infinite?

And let's define space. Space is nothing. So if it's possible for there to be an infinite amount of space in the universe, all you're really saying is that there is an infinite amount of nothing. Which is zero. lol, back to this thread

human imagination is infinite.but it's also the limiting factor for one in his sociocultural environment.our thoughts are often heavily influenced by society we live in and artistic and scientific achievements of that society.

I'm not sure you fully understand the nature of infinity in mathematics.

also in mathematic infinity exists.let's look at natural numbers 1,2,3,4 and so on.there isn't a definite number of numbers belonging to that group.so you say it's an infinite group of numbers.it's quite simple.

Space is nothing

yes.but there is something in that nothing - matter and energy(to be exact matter is form of energy just condensed). and that something is everything we know and can percieve either with our sensatory organ or mind processes. so we can say nothing is everything to us. quite funny if you look at it this way.