Guiscard wrote:Jenos Ridan wrote:Guiscard wrote:griffin_slayer wrote:exactly, do you think the apostles would've died for a lie? i mean all they had to do was admit that it was a lie. take peter for example, he thought himself unworthy to die the same death as JESUS he asked to be crucified up side down. that's devotion.
What do Islamic suicide bombers die for?
Are you saying that Jesus never existed?
Figures, that would be the first thing you would try and aim for.
No. I think you're missing my point.
The fact that the apostles would die for something doesn't make it true. If you accept martyrdom as evidence of true religious message then you would also have to accept that, in line with his argument Islamic martyrs prove the existence of the Islamic God - something directly in conflict with the beliefs of most Christians.
I don't see where you got Jesus not existing from...
No, the fact that the apostles and others who claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected does not in itself prove it to be true. It just dis-proves the idea that they made it all up. Lots of people give their lives for lots of beliefs and causes and it doesn't prove the belief true or the cause right. What it does prove is that the martyr belived in it. Who would die for what they knew to be a lie?
But in another sense, it does prove that Jesus actually rose because the conspiracy theory is the only alternative that is half plausible. The others are that the people who knew him best, (including his mother, she was there at pentecost) mistook someone else for the risen Christ, or that the Romans' time perfected method of execution failed to actually kill him, and he had a recovery any hospital would be proud of in a damp, dirty, sealed cave, and this barely-alive patient rolled a huge stone, defeated the guards, and looked good enough to pass for the victorious son of God. Those are scientifically and historically ludicrous.