In your opinion, How long before an immigrant....

[joecoolfrog]

Well, my family (at least on one side) has been in the US for about 6 generations, and 4 of those are still alive. In short, my ancestors were rebels in Ireland. I'm thinking, maybe IRA, but I could be wrong.

How do you know they were rebels.most Irish emigrated because they were starving not because of politics.

[got tonkaed]

id argue you certainly can, as is evidenced by the large government organizations which currently do just that.

.

Hmmm...this does not spark me with a great deal of confidence.

Are there any examples of this? How it has succesfully worked on non-commonwealth immigration?

hey dont bug me with words like successful...i just said it was done.

immigration is certainly a trickier issue in the developed world now, since people still want hte standard of living, but our economies are shifting away from the style of employment that may suit both sides best.

[Norse]

"Don't bug me by trying to get me to substantiate a bold comment that I made"


Hmmm...not really cutting it I'm afraid.

[unriggable]

Second generation. I find myself to be American, even though my dad is 100% spanish and my mom is 100% Belgian.

[got tonkaed]

well im not actually trying to convince you that current immigration policy is great, because it isnt. If your expecting that out of me, then i will ultimatly fail you.

Immigration still serves a purpose for any developed nation, in that since there will inevitably be service jobs that will be priced at levels that many dont want to work at, immigrant workers will still be able to take those jobs. Unfortuantly for this discussion, i cant guess how high that number is or necesarily how the economy will continue to shift in the service sector.

The real issue at least for me is, how do we continue to create oppertunity which is essentially demanded by the economic system we play by without clearly overstepping our boundaries...I have a feeling that your alternatives are probably too short of the goal, whereas mine are probably too open. However at the same time, with proper reform you can ideally make up some of the gaps in overshooting, and hopefully clean up the system as much as possible. By being too restrictive you just create greater endemic problems for the economy which probably lead to greater job outsourcing and other issues.

[Norse]

well im not actually trying to convince you that current immigration policy is great, because it isnt. If your expecting that out of me, then i will ultimatly fail you.

Immigration still serves a purpose for any developed nation, in that since there will inevitably be service jobs that will be priced at levels that many dont want to work at, immigrant workers will still be able to take those jobs. Unfortuantly for this discussion, i cant guess how high that number is or necesarily how the economy will continue to shift in the service sector.

The real issue at least for me is, how do we continue to create oppertunity which is essentially demanded by the economic system we play by without clearly overstepping our boundaries...I have a feeling that your alternatives are probably too short of the goal, whereas mine are probably too open. However at the same time, with proper reform you can ideally make up some of the gaps in overshooting, and hopefully clean up the system as much as possible. By being too restrictive you just create greater endemic problems for the economy which probably lead to greater job outsourcing and other issues.

Tonkaed, Im reading through your garble, and can't make head nor tail of it.

Please clarify your comments, I can't follow your thought line, and I'm not psychic on a monday.

[got tonkaed]

hmm in short....ill admit my sets of opinions on immigration are not always consistent, because i think its impossible to have a realistic set of beliefs about something like this in the current climate.

Part of the way our economy works, even in a service economy, relies on immigrant labor. How much is debatable. How much we should do to benefit the large number of people is also debateable. I feel the crux of our difference is that you would like undershoot how much is needed to be done, and i would probably try to do too much.

I just happen to think overshooting the bar is better because you can do more to clean that up, whereas undershooting the bar (for how much immigration needs to be allowed and what should be done about immigrants) leads to greater problems, because immigration is a fact of life.

[heavycola]

Why are different ethnicities different? Why do nordic people have big noses? or Black people have Black skin?

It is because during their evoloutionary path, they have adapted to the climate that they are accustomed to, and developed certain aspects to their physiology and psychology dependent on that climate. That my friend is a fact.

psychology? different races are born with different brains? Which race has the best-developed intellect?
Actually by far the most difference between my dna and that of, say, a black man lies in the absolute superficialities - skin pigmentation, hair shape and colour, etc. Not psychological differences. And these have been emphasised as much through sexual selection as through natural selection. In fact there's a good chance i have a closer common ancestor with this black dude than i do with you.

As for indigenuity, I believe that the only way one can become indifenous to a different country is time spent. You can't just "indigenise" a group of people by waving a liberal wand around and filling their pockets with treats.

And this is just nonsese. You can't become indigenous at all. You either are, or you aren't. I could spend the rest of my life in australia, wouldn't turn me into an aborigine.

[Norse]

So, by your logic, if we "overshot the mark", the subsequent "surplus" would be easier to "clean up"...sounds rather holocaustic to me.

Whereas "undershooting" this supposed "optimum" immigration will lead to more problem "because immigration is a fact of life"

Maybe you will forgive me for sounding a little perplexed at this idea.

Not to mention an already strained infrastructure within britain, prison overcrowding, school-room overcrowding, NHS meltdown, Housing issues, Transport inadequacies...the list really does go on, how are we, a small island, able to absorb the influx of immigration that you would deem "optimum".

You are looking at this from a solely "work-force" point of view...maybe this explains your short-comings on this issue.

If we were to halt immigration tomorrow, Our country will be in a better state in 10 years time, than if we continue to allow unlimited immigration within the EU.

That, my friend, is the bitter pill that you must learn to swallow.

[got tonkaed]

im not sure that it would necesarily be better, although i must admit i should learn more about labour unions in the EU but what happens when immigrant workers are able to demand wage increases that are unchecked by the market, once theres no longer a threat of a cheaper labor force?

Well that cause other sets of problems, which there at present arent answers for, whereas you can shift budget and reasses infrastructure needs as you go.

Unless your planning on building a fence, stopping immigration at any point doesnt really seem to provide solutions.

[got tonkaed]

its probably worth mentioning that all the problems you list of immigration on infrastructure are simply exacerbating the problems, those problems are going to occur either way, though that doesnt really refute your point, i just think it warrants mentioning.

[Norse]

psychology? different races are born with different brains? Which race has the best-developed intellect?

well bugger me, if it isn't my old pal Heavycola.

Yes, like all inherited physiological factors (which funnily enough includes the brain), these traits are passed on from generation to generation. Have you been told the story of the birds and the bee's?

Who has the highest developed intellect?

hmmmm, id hazard a guess at either jews, Germans, japanese or Indians

Although, you must forgive me for this horrid generalisation.

In fact there's a good chance i have a closer common ancestor with this black dude than i do with you.

I don't doubt that for a second.

And this is just nonsese. You can't become indigenous at all. You either are, or you aren't. I could spend the rest of my life in australia, wouldn't turn me into an aborigine.

Well, you would have if you had sailed over there in pre-colonial times, and became a part of their civilisation generations before the white devils went over there.

[Norse]

its probably worth mentioning that all the problems you list of immigration on infrastructure are simply exacerbating the problems, those problems are going to occur either way, though that doesnt really refute your point, i just think it warrants mentioning.

Yes, but the influx of current immigration is happening way too rapidly for the infrastructure to adapt to it.

[got tonkaed]

well considering shy of legislation that isnt going to happen dont you think its a better use of our practical energy to find ways to make it adapt faster?

[Norse]

well considering shy of legislation that isnt going to happen dont you think its a better use of our practical energy to find ways to make it adapt faster?

This is ridiculous...you can't be serious.

So, we must use all of our rescources, energy and work force, just to accomodate a surplus of immigrants?

I hope for the sake of your fellow countrymen, that you are not being serious.

[MeDeFe]

Second generation. I find myself to be American, even though my dad is 100% spanish and my mom is 100% Belgian.

6 months for me to naturalize when my family moved, after that I knew the language as well as any of my classmates and tbh there wasn't any culture shock to speak of.

[heavycola]

you must forgive me for this horrid generalisation

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[Norse]

you must forgive me for this horrid generalisation

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Yes, i'm sure that quoting me out of context would have made you wet your knickers with excitement.

[got tonkaed]

well considering shy of legislation that isnt going to happen dont you think its a better use of our practical energy to find ways to make it adapt faster?

This is ridiculous...you can't be serious.

So, we must use all of our rescources, energy and work force, just to accomodate a surplus of immigrants?

I hope for the sake of your fellow countrymen, that you are not being serious.

no, i think if we dont have the capability to make resource oriented decisions we certainly will fail eventually, if we cant make them now it will only be sooner. Certainly immigration isnt the only issue, but there have to be efforts to curb the problem while accepting that immigration is an inevitability of global capitalism...

much like the boogeyman, these things dont go away if you decide to cover your eyes and try to sleep.

[heavycola]

you must forgive me for this horrid generalisation

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Yes, i'm sure that quoting me out of context would have made you wet your knickers with excitement.

You should thank me. It was the only sensible thing you wrote.

[Norse]

You should thank me. It was the only sensible thing you wrote.

Sure.

Hey HeavyCola, we've really hit it off, haven't we?

I'm going to start calling you pet name.....hmmm what to call him....

Ahh yes! "BarHooker"...since I've had you over a barrel on more occasions than I care to remember.

[heavycola]

You should thank me. It was the only sensible thing you wrote.

Sure.

Hey HeavyCola, we've really hit it off, haven't we?

I'm going to start calling you pet name.....hmmm what to call him....

Ahh yes! "BarHooker"...since I've had you over a barrel on more occasions than I care to remember.

I LOLed. And while i found your post mildly amusing, it in no way alters the utter and dismal wrongness of your earlier efforts.

Love HC X

[Titanic]

Norse, do you really believe if we had no immigration for 10 years the country would be better off?

You know immigrants and seasonal immigration brings in tens of billions of pounds every year, because they fill the jobs which are vacant and the British people seem too proud to do. This is especially the case in agriculture. The farmers trade union themself asked the government to promote seasonal immigration and relax the rules for agricultural purposes, because there just are not enough people on the farms.

Also, EU immigrants (which makes up the majority of UK's immigration) as a proportion claim much less benefits then these indigenous people who live here on council estates and dont even bother to look for a job, and just claim all sorts of benefits.

The claim that the house price rise is due to immigrants is also not true. Immigrants tend to buy flats or cheap houses, which have not risen as much as the 2/3 bedroom houses which is where the real rises have been.

The NHS is not in crisis. It is utopia compared to the state the the Tories left it in in 1997. Waiting times are down from over a year to around 6 weeks, there are plenty of walk-in centres all around the country, GP appointments are seen within 24 hours at most practices, MRSA rates are going down and theres a massive effort to combat that in the New Year, funding for the NHS has increased greatly, as has nurse numbers and technological improvements within the NHS. Immigrants do not use the NHS as much as the public. I know people who go there with colds and flus, who miss work for colds and flus. Immigrants cant and dont do that, because their daily lives depend on their wages and they cant afford to miss work. Also, the immigrants where I live drink less and are more well behaved then Chavs and the other anti-social yobs. They dont get pissed every weekend and they dont terrorise peoples lives.

Also, the transport overcrowding is not down to immigrants. The bus services are inadequate. They just suck and need a compete overhaul. The train services are actually very good, but since 1997 transport numbers have gone up 50% and the companies are struggling to build enough carriages and trains and tracks to cope with this.

[Norse]

Norse, do you really believe if we had no immigration for 10 years the country would be better off?

yes

You know immigrants and seasonal immigration brings in tens of billions of pounds every year, because they fill the jobs which are vacant and the British people seem too proud to do.

Erm, explain to me exactly how immigrants "bring money into the country", as from my understanding of economic immigration, the money seems to be "taken out of the country"

Jeez, arent you about to start an economics degree?

This is especially the case in agriculture. The farmers trade union themself asked the government to promote seasonal immigration and relax the rules for agricultural purposes, because there just are not enough people on the farms.

Right, so because a few tight-fisted farmers, who do not want to pay Brit's a semi-decent wage in the name of vast profiteering, we as the british public must foot the bills, and sociological implications of wave upon wave of foreigners?.....

Also, EU immigrants (which makes up the majority of UK's immigration) as a proportion claim much less benefits then these indigenous people who live here on council estates and dont even bother to look for a job, and just claim all sorts of benefits.

Two wrongs do not make a right Tit, and I agree with you 100% that there are too many brits on their asses, claiming benefits. But hey, Labour need to keep these coach potatoes fed and watered, so that these lazy, idle gits keep voting 'ewm in come election time...

The claim that the house price rise is due to immigrants is also not true. Immigrants tend to buy flats or cheap houses, which have not risen as much as the 2/3 bedroom houses which is where the real rises have been.

I've certainly not heard these claims, and would not agree with them either. The housing prices is a different problem...and a large one at that.

The NHS is not in crisis.

Oh yes it is.

It is utopia compared to the state the the Tories left it in in 1997. Waiting times are down from over a year to around 6 weeks, there are plenty of walk-in centres all around the country, GP appointments are seen within 24 hours at most practices, MRSA rates are going down and theres a massive effort to combat that in the New Year, funding for the NHS has increased greatly, as has nurse numbers and technological improvements within the NHS.

Well, this is neither here nor there, I would prefer to pay less tax, and finance my own medical bill.

Immigrants do not use the NHS as much as the public.

linky please

Also, the immigrants where I live drink less and are more well behaved then Chavs and the other anti-social yobs. They dont get pissed every weekend and they dont terrorise peoples lives.

What the bloomin hell are you on about tit? as fascinating as this is, I fail to see what this has got to do with the price of cheese.

Besides, do you not know that 1/5th of londons crimes are commited by foreigners? they certainly do not make up 1/5th of londons population, not even nearly close to it.

Also, the transport overcrowding is not down to immigrants. The bus services are inadequate. They just suck and need a compete overhaul. The train services are actually very good, but since 1997 transport numbers have gone up 50% and the companies are struggling to build enough carriages and trains and tracks to cope with this.

The point I was trying to make, tit, is that the infrastructuure of Britain is not able to cope with the influx of immigration that is taking place...As you say, it can barely even cope as it is now.

[Titanic]

Erm, explain to me exactly how immigrants "bring money into the country", as from my understanding of economic immigration, the money seems to be "taken out of the country"

They bring money in by doing the job they do. If they did not do that job, the farmer would not make as much money as less produce would be produced, therefore less produce would be sold. Also, by buying stuff such as clothes, furniture, food etc.. they are contributing to the economy and the country.

The money they sent home is less they they earn for the country. No company will pay a worker more money then they are worth, so the immigrant is receiving less then they had made for the company, and after their own personal needs they are sending even less home to family etc. which means that the country has made a profit out of the immigrant in that sense. Also, remember not every immigrant sends money home, a lot come here and use the money for themselves on accessories and non-essential items.

Right, so because a few tight-fisted farmers, who do not want to pay Brit's a semi-decent wage in the name of vast profiteering, we as the british public must foot the bills, and sociological implications of wave upon wave of foreigners?.....

Tight fisted farmers? Farmers are given a raw deal by supermarkets so they have to pay only what they can afford. Btw, the wage is decent. The minimum wage is £5.35, and is rising to around £5.70 this Autumn I think, which in itself is a decent enough wage, especially for those unemployed and looking for an unskilled job.

Well, this is neither here nor there, I would prefer to pay less tax, and finance my own medical bill.

Like the USA? A lot of Americans on this site like our system of universal health care. Also, having a health care paid for by taxes is cheaper per head then a private one like America by quite a substantial amount.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care#Economics

Americans pay at least, sometimes more then twice as much for their health care per head then European countries which have universal health care, and America also has the lowest life expectancy and the highest infant mortality rate, even though they do not have the lowest number of nurses or physicians per 1000.

What the bloomin hell are you on about tit? as fascinating as this is, I fail to see what this has got to do with the price of cheese.

Whats cheese got to do with anything? The point I was making was that immigrants are generally more law abiding and better citizens then a lot of the general population, so in some ways they promote a healthier society.

The point I was trying to make, tit, is that the infrastructuure of Britain is not able to cope with the influx of immigration that is taking place...As you say, it can barely even cope as it is now.

60 million people live in the UK. 574,000 immigrants came to the UK in the year to July 2007. 385,000 emigrated from the UK. Thats a net population rise of 189,000 people. Thats a 0.32% increase. You really thing a 0.32% increase in the population is going to overpower the infrastructure of the country? If the infrastructure cannot cope with the numbers, its because it cant cope with the 60 million, not because it cant cope with the 189,000.