To make posters or Not to make posters ?

[Bonzai]

That's the question !



In the Bugs & Suggestion topic I already suggested to make posters of the CC maps.

The idea was generally thought to be a good one but there are some major problems.

- Posters would take much bigger maps then the current CC ones.
- Mapmakers won't be happy with CC making profit with their work.
(Which is very understandable)

The second problem can be solved by arrangements with the makers though but for the first problem there isn't a great solution yet.

First of all the maps would have to be enlarged (probably by some mapmakers who want to spend a lot of time with it :$)
But also the maps would be huge in datasize which is difficult to store on your PC and to send it to CC and all the other things.

So the real question is:

"Does any of you know a solution to one of the problems ?"

And ofcourse "Do you like the idea."

And for the Mapmakers "Do you want to spend some time enlarging the maps and actually giving away your work to CC" (Of course you will make some profit too ^^ But that's something you'll have to discuss with CC)

Any sort of reply is very welcome.

Thanx.

[Coleman]

I'll repost a little here. I like the idea, but some (most?) users will not want their work sold without them seeing any money.

Those that refuse will face community pressure from people that want to buy their maps poster sized from the site. Pressure they don't really deserve to have placed on them.

In many cases maps are multi-person works, which presents a more complex set of problems when that is thrown in.

There are solutions to all these problems, but it's a potentially messy issue.

[gimil]

I would be very much happy to work on a resized map under the condition that i gained some kind of benefit from doin so. Ill give a better post once i hear a little more from the foundry.

[Bonzai]

I know money is probs the biggest problem here yeah.

But if CC makes money with their work I don't see why CC wont share their profit with the makers.

But I can't talk for CC =D So It has to be discussed with the admin.

[gimil]

I'll repost a little here. I like the idea, but some (most?) users will not want their work sold without them seeing any money.

Those that refuse will face community pressure from people that want to buy their maps poster sized from the site. Pressure they don't really deserve to have placed on them.

In many cases maps are multi-person works, which presents a more complex set of problems when that is thrown in.

There are solutions to all these problems, but it's a potentially messy issue.

It doesnt nessessarily mean that the map maker wants money (Although alot could) there could be a number of benefits that lack could introduce. I have personally though out a few idesa but ill save them till we get an official word on this idea.

But as you said coleman if a map maker doesnt want to have there map sold because of money reason they shouldnt have to surrender to community pressure (although this presure from th community could be seen as a business oppertunity)

[Bonzai]

So it seems like a new problem has shown up.

The Money-Talks (money or other benefits ofcource)

But I'm still one of the new players and I don't know anything about economics etc..

So maybe it's good to have someone who can maintain contact with the admin and arange the financial things with the mapmakers who want to colaborate ...

Is anyone interested so far ? :$

[Coleman]

Well I'd allow all my maps up without seeing any benefits.

But all my maps are multi-person works. 8 Thoughts is arguably the most mine of what I've been involved in, but WidowMakers redid all the art, so the actual poster really is his 100%. all of Mibi's maps are 100% his art, and Great Lakes I've only done xml.

So for me specifically I don't really have any artistic license, although I'd allow the idea.

Even if you throw money out the window some map makers won't want their works up for sale just because they don't. They don't need a good reason, it's their work to do what they want with or to allow what they want with.

My position though, is I'd like to have the posters, I'm just worried about all the technical stuff being more then our Shopkeeper and Admin are interested in dealing with.

[Bonzai]

Maybe you're right.

Maybe all of the mapmakers allow CC to use them (hmmm dreaming ^^)
So that's 1 problem less.


So now it's up to the shopkeeper and the admin I guess ...

[mibi]

selling gameboards could be potentially a lot of revenue for Lack. The selling of tangibles should be in the arsenal of every for profit webmaster. I'm surprised Lack has been so slow in this, and other revenue sources that remain un-utilized.

with actual boards, only the top boards would be cost effective. with posters, any map can be cheaply reproduced provided quality source files. im no sure how many people would want to play on a poster though. as an artist I wouldnt license my work for sale for anything less than 50% of the profit.

[Vace Cooper]

I will let CC make posters of my super cool map

[owenshooter]

doesn't matter to me. i already have high-res screen grabs of all the maps and have used them to wallpaper my entire house... it is a really nice scheme... each room is it's own region of the world. the new italy and belgium and france maps have really made the bathroom come alive. however, i must admit, 8 Thoughts did not make the cut for my wallpaper scheme... sorry... so, do what you want, i am set with my wallpaper... oh, and i have custom CC Toilet Paper to rock my dirty bottom with...-0

-#14 on the CC top 25 Secret Board Rankings-

[WidowMakers]

I will post tomorrow with a response to the issue.
Lack and I talked about it months ago.

WM

[DiM]

I will post tomorrow with a response to the issue.
Lack and I talked about it months ago.

WM

any change on my cardboard suggestion?

last time i remember it was a problem with copyright. i find that strange since i don't think a foldable cardboard can be copyrighted.

[Night Strike]

I'm assuming most of the cartographers already have premium, so maybe paying them with merchandise from the Shop could be a better alternative to actual cash.

[oaktown]

I don't know about posters, but I'd wear a CC shirt with one of my maps on the back.

As for making money - the site is already making money from the work of the mapmakers. The difference is I benefit from being able to play the map, where as I wouldn't benefit from CC selling my artwork.

Suddenly copyright issues would come into play much more - it's one thing to play a middle earth map, another to print and market one.

[WidowMakers]

OK. I will try to account for every aspect of this issue. Forgive me if I leave something out.

Graphics:
1) Currently most large maps on CC have a resolution too small to be printed on a board or poster. The standard poster of 20" x 30" would need a minimum resolution of 3000 x 4500 pixels. That is MUCH larger than the current size of the maps.
2) Each map on CC has different aspect ratios. Meaning the height to Width of each map is not standard. So either the poster/game board sizes would need to be different for each map or a standard size would be decided upon and all reworks for this project would need to be in that agreed upon size.
3)There will be changes to the maps to allow them to be used with pieces. Who decides what th changes are. I know if I redid King of the Mountains, I might think the map is OK but others might feel the textures are too tight or rough or the lines are fuzzy. Now we need a FF for posters/boards.
4) Who will design the cards and decide the color that goes with each territory. We are fortunate not to deal with that on CC but we would need to deal with it when making maps to sell.

Cost:
1) How much is everyone willing to pay for a poster or board? $5, $10, $20???
2) How much is everyone willing to spend on cards?

Issues:
1) What maps do we sell? There are quite a few maps that I personally would like to have and be able to play outside of CC. Are they the same as the ones you would want? How many sell-able maps do we have the map makers revamp into large maps? 2, 5, 20?
2) Online posters (I.E. Zazzle) would be the easiest way to sell maps. They are limited production and would be accessible by everyone at anytime. But go and check out how much profit is made off of a $20 poster at Zazzle. How much does the map maker want and how many maps would need to be sold to justify their time revamping them into poster size?
3)Printing game boards would be the ideal (and my personal favorite) when it comes to the maps. They could be designed to fit right in the current world domination dice game box we all have at home. But an order of boards need to be payed for before they can be sold. So how many does Lack make and store in hope he will sell them.

50 of one map = approx $60 each = $3000
250 of a map = approx $13 each = $3250
500 of map = approx $8 each = $4000

(this is an actual quote from a board game manufacturer I got at the beginning of the year.)

These then need to be purchased for every map that is deemed OK for poster sales.

So lets say 5 maps get the OK. Lets say we think we can sell 250 of each map. Lack needs to spend:

5 maps
250 per map
$13 per map
--------------
$16250

And he has not even sold any yet.

Then there is the cards per map ( ihave not got a quote on that becasue the board cost was too high), storage and shipping.

Who is going to store the 1250 maps?
Who is going to take orders, print labels, and delieve the map to UPS to ship?
Are they going to get paid?

So that is why currently we are not making game boards and why (IMHO) we are not making posters.
But of the two, posters is the only way this will actually happen in the foreseeable future.

[mibi]

OK. I will try to account for every aspect of this issue. Forgive me if I leave something out.

Graphics:
1) Currently most large maps on CC have a resolution too small to be printed on a board or poster. The standard poster of 20" x 30" would need a minimum resolution of 3000 x 4500 pixels. That is MUCH larger than the current size of the maps.
2) Each map on CC has different aspect ratios. Meaning the height to Width of each map is not standard. So either the poster/game board sizes would need to be different for each map or a standard size would be decided upon and all reworks for this project would need to be in that agreed upon size.
3)There will be changes to the maps to allow them to be used with pieces. Who decides what th changes are. I know if I redid King of the Mountains, I might think the map is OK but others might feel the textures are too tight or rough or the lines are fuzzy. Now we need a FF for posters/boards.
4) Who will design the cards and decide the color that goes with each territory. We are fortunate not to deal with that on CC but we would need to deal with it when making maps to sell.

Cost:
1) How much is everyone willing to pay for a poster or board? $5, $10, $20???
2) How much is everyone willing to spend on cards?

Issues:
1) What maps do we sell? There are quite a few maps that I personally would like to have and be able to play outside of CC. Are they the same as the ones you would want? How many sell-able maps do we have the map makers revamp into large maps? 2, 5, 20?
2) Online posters (I.E. Zazzle) would be the easiest way to sell maps. They are limited production and would be accessible by everyone at anytime. But go and check out how much profit is made off of a $20 poster at Zazzle. How much does the map maker want and how many maps would need to be sold to justify their time revamping them into poster size?
3)Printing game boards would be the ideal (and my personal favorite) when it comes to the maps. They could be designed to fit right in the current world domination dice game box we all have at home. But an order of boards need to be payed for before they can be sold. So how many does Lack make and store in hope he will sell them.

50 of one map = approx $60 each = $3000
250 of a map = approx $13 each = $3250
500 of map = approx $8 each = $4000

(this is an actual quote from a board game manufacturer I got at the beginning of the year.)

These then need to be purchased for every map that is deemed OK for poster sales.

So lets say 5 maps get the OK. Lets say we think we can sell 250 of each map. Lack needs to spend:

5 maps
250 per map
$13 per map
--------------
$16250

And he has not even sold any yet.

Then there is the cards per map ( ihave not got a quote on that becasue the board cost was too high), storage and shipping.

Who is going to store the 1250 maps?
Who is going to take orders, print labels, and delieve the map to UPS to ship?
Are they going to get paid?

So that is why currently we are not making game boards and why (IMHO) we are not making posters.
But of the two, posters is the only way this will actually happen in the foreseeable future.

You forget that selling gameboards opens up the Risk market at large, and not just the CC community. Selling 500 gameboards is an attainable goal considering the hundreds of thousands of Risk games sold. Not to mention each gameboard could be branded by CC, creating a bigger draw for Lack to the site.

It's an investment, as is any business venture, and comes with risk, but I think it is sound.

I also would create 5 boards at once. Start with World 2.0 or something popular and see how it fairs, less investment, less risk. Test the waters.

[Bonzai]

Hmmm plenty of reasons to not make posters it seams =(

So I'll add another one:

Hasbro probably has encountered the same problem as we have now.
And they decided not to make other maps.
And they have marketing engeneers etc.. to check every option about it.

But then Hasbro wouldn't make other maps for just let's say $10,000/year
But I guess Lack, the shopkeeper and all mapmakers would be extremely happy with it.

But then again if Hasbro sell's the maps they are sold in stores, they would have television spots and way more sources to make their maps open to the public whereas CC only has a small community and an online shop.

But even then CC can aim for the bigger market but that includes risks (which lack will like of course) but that also includes spending a lot of money (which lack won't like) and of course Hasbro won't be very happy with it.

I don't know how old Lack is, I don't know his profession (maybe he's a student like me), I don't know about his parents, his monthly income, etc...
So I don't know anything about the chances of succes...

You can always try to contact Hasbro of course but they will have multiple reasons to not allow you to publish maps for their game and they will even have more reasons to not help you.


So I guess this idea has come to an end for now.
But I suggests to remember it very well and once opportunity knocks on your door; go for it !

As already said Posters are much more likely to be sold than boards;

Personally I would like very much to play on a poster and I guess I'm willing to pay * $5 each poster and $20 for 5 posters. But I'm only a poor student so I guess many players are willing to pay more for it (no ?) You also don't play Risk on your own so if you can get some friends together to pay with you $10 a poster, $40 for a 5-pack and $50 for a 5-pack with 1 year premium wouldn't be much of a problem.

* This are my ideas, no price has been decided here !!!

Then we have the cards problem (a problem I totally didn't think about :$)
In stead of selling cards for every poster you can just sell a standard pack of cards with numbers in stead of terretories. Of course each number is linked to a terretory (shown on the map itself) and ofcourse it has an infantry, cavalry or artillery unit printed on it.
I guess world 2.0 has the most terretories so far and I think it won't change very soon so that can be the maximum of the cards.

Due to too many terretories and way too few riskpuppets the world v2.0 poster would not be playable by just 1 set of riskpuppets


But anyways. When, in about 15 years, I teach my little children how to play Risk it would be amazingly lovely to teach them play "The Conquerors" in stead ^^ (or any name Lack will call his own Risk-version).

Thank you for all the suggestions, ideas and commentary so far...

[mibi]

Hmmm plenty of reasons to not make posters it seams =(

So I'll add another one:

Hasbro probably has encountered the same problem as we have now.
And they decided not to make other maps.
And they have marketing engeneers etc.. to check every option about it.

But then Hasbro wouldn't make other maps for just let's say $10,000/year
But I guess Lack, the shopkeeper and all mapmakers would be extremely happy with it.

But then again if Hasbro sell's the maps they are sold in stores, they would have television spots and way more sources to make their maps open to the public whereas CC only has a small community and an online shop.

But even then CC can aim for the bigger market but that includes risks (which lack will like of course) but that also includes spending a lot of money (which lack won't like) and of course Hasbro won't be very happy with it.

I don't know how old Lack is, I don't know his profession (maybe he's a student like me), I don't know about his parents, his monthly income, etc...
So I don't know anything about the chances of succes...

You can always try to contact Hasbro of course but they will have multiple reasons to not allow you to publish maps for their game and they will even have more reasons to not help you.


So I guess this idea has come to an end for now.
But I suggests to remember it very well and once opportunity knocks on your door; go for it !

As already said Posters are much more likely to be sold than boards;

Personally I would like very much to play on a poster and I guess I'm willing to pay * $5 each poster and $20 for 5 posters. But I'm only a poor student so I guess many players are willing to pay more for it (no ?) You also don't play Risk on your own so if you can get some friends together to pay with you $10 a poster, $40 for a 5-pack and $50 for a 5-pack with 1 year premium wouldn't be much of a problem.

* This are my ideas, no price has been decided here !!!

Then we have the cards problem (a problem I totally didn't think about :$)
In stead of selling cards for every poster you can just sell a standard pack of cards with numbers in stead of terretories. Of course each number is linked to a terretory (shown on the map itself) and ofcourse it has an infantry, cavalry or artillery unit printed on it.
I guess world 2.0 has the most terretories so far and I think it won't change very soon so that can be the maximum of the cards.

Due to too many terretories and way too few riskpuppets the world v2.0 poster would not be playable by just 1 set of riskpuppets


But anyways. When, in about 15 years, I teach my little children how to play Risk it would be amazingly lovely to teach them play "The Conquerors" in stead ^^ (or any name Lack will call his own Risk-version).

Thank you for all the suggestions, ideas and commentary so far...

Hasbro has already made 11 versions of Risk, so I think they see the value in horizontal integration. As for copyright issues, I don't see any. How many different unliscenced versions of monopoly are there? Several thousand I'm sure. Hell you can even make your own board here, http://www.tdcgames.com/MYO.htm

I think its an investment Lack should seriously consider, from a business standpoint.

[DiM]

i think boardgames and posters could be a great way to make loads of money for lack and something he should really consider. but he's the only one that can make accurate calculations and make a decision.

i just looked on the net and a risk game from hasbro can be bought with 22$.
if lack can come up with a price similar to that i think he will sell big even if he doesn't supply the troops the dice and the box. just the cards and the map. in theory i think that's perfectly possible. i mean i can go and make something like that for a lot less money. i can produce cards and cardboard prints at ~8$ for orders of over 100 pieces.
in fact somewhere next month i'm planning on starting a business with a friend and sell posters. nice images in nice frames at ~40$ with a cost of just 12$ for the production (transportation not included) . and in stores they can be bought for 60-200$.

[Bonzai]

Hmmmm why don't you sell gameboards instead ???

[DiM]

Hmmmm why don't you sell gameboards instead ???

i'm not talking about posters of CC maps but posters with different images. my buddy is a photograph and he has some great images plus various images i make in photoshop. that's what we'll sell because the market for such things is way bigger then the market for images of CC maps.

something like this:

[Gnome]

I'd like to see a poster of Midkemia on my wall


maybe I'll use post-its to indicate army number

[DiM]

I'd like to see a poster of Midkemia on my wall

you have no furniture?

[Gnome]

lol that's not a picture of my house