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Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

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Postby Frigidus on Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:46 pm

joecoolfrog wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:Jay
There is no point denying the fact that 99.9 % of Scientists believe in the theory,they may all be wrong but its unlikely. Therefore it would be correct to say that evolution is widely accepted as fact and there is no comparable theory based on known natural law. Picking flaws in a theory is fine,thats what expands our knowledge, but stubbornly refusing to recognise a probability is just stupid and ignorant.
You have chosen to take an uncompromising stand in regards to literal scripture,which puts you in a huge minority even amongst Christians, this however disadvantages you when confronted with logical thought and reduces you to stonewalling debate. This particular brand of faith does not educate or open ones eyes, it simply narrows them until you become blinded to all that you do not wish to see.




It's not 99.9 % Lets keep it official shall we?


1997-NOV data is little changed. Note the massive differences between the beliefs of the general population and of scientists:
Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic
Everyone 44% 39% 10%
Scientists 5% 40% 55%


Yep sorry Jay the exact figure was 99.86 % and comes from the same source as your figures which only add up to 95% , despite the organisations best efforts to put creationism in the most positive light.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev

As nice as that theoretical number would be the links not working. Did you type it in wrong maybe?
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Postby unriggable on Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:49 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:
Backglass wrote:
heavycola wrote:It's based on a class you took aged... what, 13? That you have stated proudly you ignored? yet you seem to have the jump on the world's geologists, palaeotntologists and biologists.


Remember that jay also honestly believes he was cured of a disease by a television preacher-healer so science in of no value to him. :roll:



lol...I have medical documentation to back it up. Backglass, why bother? Jesus could come into your bedroom tonight and you'd run straight to a psychologist to find out what is wrong with you! :wink:


There's only one problem: he's been dead for 2000 years, and 'rage' is a fictional disease.



He's been alive for 2000 years. (could we at least be accurate please?)


He's about as alive as my grandpa, who got a heart attack and never woke up (unless you're still ten years old inside and believe that 'not in this world' bullshit). He's dead. Nobody's found him. He's dead.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:56 pm

Sorry about the link - working now
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Postby Backglass on Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:18 pm

jay_a2j wrote:lol...I have medical documentation to back it up. Backglass, why bother? Jesus could come into your bedroom tonight and you'd run straight to a psychologist to find out what is wrong with you! :wink:


You have medical documentation that proves you were healed by a TV preacher? This I gotta see.

And I have often said that if your god, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Ra or Poseidon decides to actually show themselves, I will become and instant zealot and out pray YOU! Send me a PM when any of them show themselves will ya? ;)
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Postby jay_a2j on Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:38 pm

Backglass wrote:
jay_a2j wrote:lol...I have medical documentation to back it up. Backglass, why bother? Jesus could come into your bedroom tonight and you'd run straight to a psychologist to find out what is wrong with you! :wink:


You have medical documentation that proves you were healed by a TV preacher? This I gotta see.

And I have often said that if your god, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Ra or Poseidon decides to actually show themselves, I will become and instant zealot and out pray YOU! Send me a PM when any of them show themselves will ya? ;)



No, a 1990 MRI that shows I had MS and a 2007 MRI that shows I do not have MS. MS has no known cure....but I'm sure you will find some way to explain it away. The healing took place in 1991 btw. :wink:
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Postby unriggable on Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:43 pm

MS meaning Mitral Stenosis?

Those things, especially before good equipment was available (2000-) were falsely given. You probably didn't have it in the first place.
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Postby jay_a2j on Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:06 pm

unriggable wrote:MS meaning Mitral Stenosis?

Those things, especially before good equipment was available (2000-) were falsely given. You probably didn't have it in the first place.



No, Multiple Sclerosis. And here we go with the "explaining away"! Give me a break, I had MS.... I had all the symptoms...I lived with it...don't sit there and say I never had it.
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Postby Frigidus on Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:36 pm

jay_a2j wrote:
unriggable wrote:MS meaning Mitral Stenosis?

Those things, especially before good equipment was available (2000-) were falsely given. You probably didn't have it in the first place.



No, Multiple Sclerosis. And here we go with the "explaining away"! Give me a break, I had MS.... I had all the symptoms...I lived with it...don't sit there and say I never had it.

There have been greater medical mysteries. No point in arguing with you, neither of us will change our opinion. I suppose that for someone who believes that there is a god who was documented to have healed the sick it would only be logical to assume that it was his doing. Unfortunately I can't share your opinion.
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Postby Titanic on Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:55 pm

Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
bullet 97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
bullet 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Never knew that so many Christians here believe the truth...

Jay, you were healed by a tv-preacher? Come on, with creation there might be a reason why you believe it, but now your just trying to pull our legs.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:06 am

Titanic wrote:
Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
bullet 97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
bullet 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Never knew that so many Christians here believe the truth...

Jay, you were healed by a tv-preacher? Come on, with creation there might be a reason why you believe it, but now your just trying to pull our legs.


The thing is that we really dont have a huge number of Christian Fundamentalists in Britain, in fact most religious people just keep their faith to themselves apart from some of the Islamist groups. I think thats why we and a lot of the World see the bible belt fundamentalists as just plain crazy, just as we view the Islamic nutters of the same ilk.
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Postby AlgyTaylor on Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:23 am

AlgyTaylor wrote:Hold on, why is it evolution that needs to be defended anyway, since the vast majority of people agree that it's correct. You defend your point of view for a change!

OK, some problems I have with creationism.

1) As Jay has quite rightly said carbon dating is accurate to 70,000 years. The bible says the earth is considerably younger than that. Explain this glaringly obvious problem.

2) Why don't you find fossils of modern day animals? I mean, according to your reasoning surely there should be fossils of animals that lived 100 years ago ...

3) WITHOUT USING YOUR BIBLE, is there any actual evidence that you can point to that shows the earth was created. And please, don't go down the "it's too complicated for me to understand so therefore god did it" route either. I don't understand how Shakespeare managed to write brilliant plays but it doesn't mean that god did it for him. Actual evidence that you do understand that proves your idiotic theory.

That should give you something to be getting on with. I'll give you some more problems if/when you manage to answer those questions for me.

Still no creationists have been able to answer these questions ... and it's not as if I don't have any more that I want to ask them.
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Postby Frigidus on Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:28 am

AlgyTaylor wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:Hold on, why is it evolution that needs to be defended anyway, since the vast majority of people agree that it's correct. You defend your point of view for a change!

OK, some problems I have with creationism.

1) As Jay has quite rightly said carbon dating is accurate to 70,000 years. The bible says the earth is considerably younger than that. Explain this glaringly obvious problem.

2) Why don't you find fossils of modern day animals? I mean, according to your reasoning surely there should be fossils of animals that lived 100 years ago ...

3) WITHOUT USING YOUR BIBLE, is there any actual evidence that you can point to that shows the earth was created. And please, don't go down the "it's too complicated for me to understand so therefore god did it" route either. I don't understand how Shakespeare managed to write brilliant plays but it doesn't mean that god did it for him. Actual evidence that you do understand that proves your idiotic theory.

That should give you something to be getting on with. I'll give you some more problems if/when you manage to answer those questions for me.

Still no creationists have been able to answer these questions ... and it's not as if I don't have any more that I want to ask them.

They didn't try to explain away human "adaptation" (if they want to call it that) from australopithecus to human. Either they have no response or I'm too much of a noob to argue with them. :(
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Postby jay_a2j on Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:04 am

Titanic wrote:
Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
bullet 97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
bullet 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Never knew that so many Christians here believe the truth...

Jay, you were healed by a tv-preacher? Come on, with creation there might be a reason why you believe it, but now your just trying to pull our legs.


No, I wasn't healed by a tv preacher. I was healed by God. The preacher just gave the word. It's a waste of time to discuss matters of faith with those who have none. And no explanation of AlgyTaylor's questions will be "good enough" for you guys, so there is no point in trying. My bad, sometimes I get overzealous sharing my faith with those who don't give damn. My apologies.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:26 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Titanic wrote:
Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
bullet 97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
bullet 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Never knew that so many Christians here believe the truth...

Jay, you were healed by a tv-preacher? Come on, with creation there might be a reason why you believe it, but now your just trying to pull our legs.


No, I wasn't healed by a tv preacher. I was healed by God. The preacher just gave the word. It's a waste of time to discuss matters of faith with those who have none. And no explanation of AlgyTaylor's questions will be "good enough" for you guys, so there is no point in trying. My bad, sometimes I get overzealous sharing my faith with those who don't give damn. My apologies.


Your posts are getting progressively more dishonest, what you really mean is you have no plausible answers .
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Postby AlgyTaylor on Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:42 am

jay_a2j wrote:No, I wasn't healed by a tv preacher. I was healed by God. The preacher just gave the word. It's a waste of time to discuss matters of faith with those who have none. And no explanation of AlgyTaylor's questions will be "good enough" for you guys, so there is no point in trying. My bad, sometimes I get overzealous sharing my faith with those who don't give damn. My apologies.

Honestly Jay, as I've said before I don't doubt that you were healed by God through a TV preacher (although IMO it has more to do with your faith in God healing you than 'God' actually doing it - but that's by the by).

All I want is your answers to some questions I have about why you believe in creationism, pointing out flaws as I see them and seeing if you can give me a good/reasonable answer to them.
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Postby Frigidus on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:09 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Titanic wrote:
Belief in creation science seems to be largely a U.S. phenomenon among countries the West. A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
bullet 97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
bullet 80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Never knew that so many Christians here believe the truth...

Jay, you were healed by a tv-preacher? Come on, with creation there might be a reason why you believe it, but now your just trying to pull our legs.


No, I wasn't healed by a tv preacher. I was healed by God. The preacher just gave the word. It's a waste of time to discuss matters of faith with those who have none. And no explanation of AlgyTaylor's questions will be "good enough" for you guys, so there is no point in trying. My bad, sometimes I get overzealous sharing my faith with those who don't give damn. My apologies.

Well that spells the end of this thread methinks. From what I can tell WidowMakers already gave up on the thread, so with Jay gone it's just a couple of guys talking about how disillusioned creationism is. It was interesting while it lasted I suppose.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:29 am

jay_a2j wrote: It's a waste of time to discuss matters of faith with those who have none. And no explanation of AlgyTaylor's questions will be "good enough" for you guys, so there is no point in trying. My bad, sometimes I get overzealous sharing my faith with those who don't give damn. My apologies.


"you people wouldn't understand my perfectly valid reasoning!"?

Really, that's ridiculous. At least give a shot at it instead of trying to sound like the better person and fleeing from people who disagree with you. If they were good reasons you should have nothing to worry about.
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Postby jay_a2j on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:32 am

Snorri1234 wrote:"you people wouldn't understand my perfectly valid reasoning!"?



Lets try not putting things in quotes which were never said. (And you wonder why it gets old trying to talk to you guys)
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:39 am

jay_a2j wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:"you people wouldn't understand my perfectly valid reasoning!"?



Lets try not putting things in quotes which were never said. (And you wonder why it gets old trying to talk to you guys)


I summarised your post. Why aren't you giving those reasons? Because you somehow know that we won't agree with them? Without actually giving them?

This only gives us more reason to think you don't have any actual reasons but only the bible...
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:08 am

AlgyTaylor wrote:Honestly Jay, as I've said before I don't doubt that you were healed by God through a TV preacher (although IMO it has more to do with your faith in God healing you than 'God' actually doing it - but that's by the by).

All I want is your answers to some questions I have about why you believe in creationism, pointing out flaws as I see them and seeing if you can give me a good/reasonable answer to them.


When Jesus did his healings, he always said "Your faith has healed you."

It was your faith that healed you, not God Himself. Faith can move mountains, total reliance on a diety can destroy societies.
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Postby jay_a2j on Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:35 am

vtmarik wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:Honestly Jay, as I've said before I don't doubt that you were healed by God through a TV preacher (although IMO it has more to do with your faith in God healing you than 'God' actually doing it - but that's by the by).

All I want is your answers to some questions I have about why you believe in creationism, pointing out flaws as I see them and seeing if you can give me a good/reasonable answer to them.


When Jesus did his healings, he always said "Your faith has healed you."

It was your faith that healed you, not God Himself. Faith can move mountains, total reliance on a diety can destroy societies.




More like "Because of your faith, you are healed" It is God who heals, not a person's faith. But faith is required. "Your faith has healed you"... Having faith allows God to work.
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:38 am

jay_a2j wrote:More like "Because of your faith, you are healed" It is God who heals, not a person's faith. But faith is required. "Your faith has healed you"... Having faith allows God to work.


Strange though that the source of the faith is never explicitly stated every time.

"If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain 'Move from here to there' and it will move."

Faith is the key to the religion, not God. Faith in god, in your fellow man, in your beliefs, in yourself. It doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith.
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Postby WidowMakers on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:40 pm

Again sorry to take so long. I have not abandoned the topic and I hop everyone else has not either.

jay_a2j wrote:
vtmarik wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:Honestly Jay, as I've said before I don't doubt that you were healed by God through a TV preacher (although IMO it has more to do with your faith in God healing you than 'God' actually doing it - but that's by the by).
All I want is your answers to some questions I have about why you believe in creationism, pointing out flaws as I see them and seeing if you can give me a good/reasonable answer to them.

When Jesus did his healings, he always said "Your faith has healed you."
It was your faith that healed you, not God Himself. Faith can move mountains, total reliance on a diety can destroy societies.

More like "Because of your faith, you are healed" It is God who heals, not a person's faith. But faith is required. "Your faith has healed you"... Having faith allows God to work.
Jay I appreciate the help in try to defend creation but this is not helping. Just to let you know, I agree with you. Faith has healed people. I have seen it just his past month with our youth pastor.

BUT……
This is not a thread about faith.
It is about facts of science, things that can be measured and repeated. The assumptions each side makes about these facts and the conclusions they come to (evolution or creation).

So while I do appreciate you standing up for what you believe this is not the forum for it. Please feel free to chime in with scientific explanations for topics discussed but please keep God out of it for now.

The purpose of this thread(again) is to show both sides of the fence and see which idea is more viable, creation or evolution.

Now whether creation happened because of 1 god, 24 gods or 6,000,000 gods is not important right now. What is important is to show each side and then let people REALLY look at each scenario and decide for themselves. After that if people want to discuss who is the true god, then talk about faith.

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Postby WidowMakers on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:44 pm

OK here we go
Natural Selection vs Evolution
Definitions
Evolution:
First off we need to define evolution in terms of what we have been discussing.
The problem is there is no agreed upon term for evolution.
The first major problem of evolution is that evolutionists cannot even agree on a definition of what "evolution" is! Ernst Mayr, hailed as the "world's greatest living evolutionary biologist" (Gould, 2001a), candidly admitted that "Evolution shows so many facets that it looks alike to no two persons" (Mayr, 1970, p.1)!


Vague Definitions:
Mayr's own definition of "evolution," in the glossary of his book, "What Evolution Is," is "The gradual process by which the living world has been developing following the origin of life" (Mayr, 2001, p.286).

But this is so vague that even the strictest creationist could agree with it; therefore it is useless. If Mayr, the "world's greatest living evolutionary biologist", cannot supply an adequate scientific definition of "evolution," in a book titled "What Evolution Is," then it is a reasonable assumption that evolutionists have no agreed, adequate scientific definition of "evolution"!


A favourite tactic of evolutionists, is to define "evolution" so vaguely that it cannot be false. For example, Carl Zimmer, in his book based on the USA PBS television series "Evolution," titled "Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea," defines "evolution" as "change, nothing more or less" (Zimmer C., 2001, p.135)!


What evolution really means in this discussion:

However, there is a definition of "evolution" which is what mainstream science believes and that is "the standard scientific theory that `human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but GOD HAD NO PART IN THIS PROCESS.'" (Shermer, 2002. My emphasis). That this is the real definition of evolution" within mainstream science is evident in that mainstream science will not permit even the most naturalistic of theistic evolutionist explanations within science, such as that of today's Kenneth Miller, where even "the idea of purpose" is too much (Palevitz, 2000) or yesteryear's Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, whose views were rejected out of hand as "pious bunk" (Medawar, 1966, p.xi). Also, dictionaries of biology (Abercrombie, et al., 1990, pp.194-195; Hale & Margham, 1988, p.214; Tootill, 1981, p.108), science (Isaacs, Daintith & Martin, 1991, pp.183, 251-252; Lafferty & Rowe, 1996, p.222) and philosophy (Vesey & Foulkes, 1990, p.108), define "evolution" as being opposed to "special creation". The real definition of "evolution," therefore, is `however it happened, God didn't do it' (Hunter, 2003, p.10; Johnson, 1992f)!

So there we have it.
DEF:
Evolution is the process in which life becomes more complex over millions of years developing from less complex life into more complex life across genetic boundaries of a particular organism or species.

Natural Selection:
…is the process that results in the adaptation of an organism to its environment by means of selectively reproducing changes in its genotype, or genetic constitution. (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-90 ... -selection)

…is the process by which favorable traits that are heritable become more common in successive generations of a population of reproducing organisms, and unfavorable traits that are heritable become less common. Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, such that individuals with favorable phenotypes are more likely to survive and reproduce than those with less favorable phenotypes. If these phenotypes have a genetic basis, then the genotype associated with the favorable phenotype will increase in frequency in the next generation. Over time, this process can result in adaptations that specialize organisms for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection)

I underlined the last sentence of the 2nd definition to bring up an issue. The words may eventually result do not mean that it will happen. So to say natural selection WILL result in a new species is just speculation and opinion. Until natural selection can be shown to result in the emergence of a new species this last sentence is really meaningless.
Now onto analyzing the definitions. Both definitions above state that natural selection is variation in a particular genotype/phenotype.
Genotype:
the genetic constitution of an organism. The genotype determines the hereditary potentials and limitations of an individual from embryonic formation through adulthood. Among organisms that reproduce sexually, an individual's genotype comprises the entire complex of genes inherited from both parents.
Phenotype:
all the observable characteristics of an organism, such as shape, size, color, and behavior, that result from the interaction of its genotype (total genetic inheritance) with the environment. The common type of a group of physically similar organisms is sometimes also known as the phenotype.
Both of these definitions refer to the genetic makeup of the organism. And most importantly, the potentials and limitations of that organism from a genetic perspective.
DEF:
So Natural Selection is the process by which an organism can adapt or pass on information to its offspring within and limited by its own genetic information.
While natural selection does produce change, it does not do it by adding new genetic information, but by weeding out some of the information that was already there.
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Postby joecoolfrog on Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:47 pm

Widowmakers
But you have still produced no evidence in favour of creationism , all you have done is question aspects of the theory of evolution :?
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