Darts!!

[sully800]

Some conversation about this map began in the Target Practice thread, but now that I've started it I decided to make my own thread about it.

The map contains 84 countries and 21 continents, which is of course much larger than an ordinary map. The goal was to create a map that would yield a completely different type of gameplay and different strategies.

A dart board would normally break into 82 different areas but I split up the inner and outer bull to make it an even 84. This is a better number because it is evenly divisible by 3, 4, and 6 players which reduces the need for neutral armeis.

The continent bonuses are completely up for debate. The 20 outer continents are easy to capture since they only have 4 countries but difficult to hold because they have 4 borders. However I don't think the bonus shoudl be too high because there are so many continents that someone could quickly gain the upperhand by capturing a few. The inner continent is interesting because it only has 2 border countries, but those 2 connect to 20 other countries. I think the bonus should be a bit higher since it is a powerful place to hold (can transport you across the map easily) but with only 2 borders you once again don't want the bonus to be TOO high.

Another aspect that is up for debate is whether you should be able to attack diagonally (ie from Double 20 to Large 1). I personally think this should be a border because it would allow better movement across the map. The biggest problem might be that its confusing, but Circus Maximus already has those diagonal attacks so I think it could work here as well.

I tried to explain every else in the text of the map. That will obviously need to be improved aesthetically before the map is playable. I also plan to add some other graphics such as darts stuck around the wall.

[hawkeye]

i like it and think diagonal would work well

[sully800]

I just noticed a mistake- the pink ring in the upper right diagram should be "Small" not "Double". I'll fix that in the next update.

[maritovw]

i like the concept of this map, good idea!! but i'm against you in diagonal attack, it shouldn't be permitted, with it, half the countries would have 9 borders.... or maybe they should be permitted one way only, like attacking diagonally only when going to the center (i.e. ok from Double20 to Large1, but not ok from Large1 to Double20), that would make the center even more important!!

[gavin_sidhu]

So this map is like a circus maximus with continents?

Blow up the picture and go to paint and draw the lines of the continent. I really didnt understand your explanation of the continents.

[kwolff]

a great, brilliant , new ,refreshing look. I hope you dont let people talk you out of this. I dont like the diagonal attacking myself.

I look forward to playing an escalating game on this. Pushing the envelope on this can open up a whole new aspect on the site congrats to a good idea.

[sully800]

So this map is like a circus maximus with continents?

Blow up the picture and go to paint and draw the lines of the continent. I really didnt understand your explanation of the continents.

It's like circus maximus in that its circular but thats about it. Circus maximus has no continents, 30 countries and all one way attacks. This map would have 21 continents, 84 countries and no one way attacks. And yeah, I'm against the one way borders maritovw because I think it would make the map more confusing and more cluttered than it needs to be.

Also to see a larger picture just click on the image here. That will show you the full size one on image shack.

And for the continents? Picture a pie with 20 slices. Each slice is a continent and the middle two rings of the bullseye are the 21st continent.

[Hoff]

I like the idea of many territories. Sounds good.

[rocksolid]

I dug this idea when some guy suggested it in June, and I still dig it now. My comments remain the same:

People will probably hate your idea - there's a bit of resistance to maps that aren't instantly comprehensible, like the crossword map (which I reiterate is genius) - but that doesn't mean it's not an interesting one with some potential to be unique, and a strong appeal to a group with your tastes. The king-of-the-hill centre is kind of being put together with the Tenochtitlan map, so maybe something you'd want to consider (which doesn't exist on any other map here) is making the 25 point ring and the 50 point spot worth 2 extra armies to any continent held in conjunction with them - so if you hold the bullseye and x continent, it's x value + 2, but if you hold x continent and y continent, it's x + 2 + y + 2, so the bullseye becomes more and more valuable the more continents you have.

Just to clarify - this would make the bullseye not a continent in its own right, and no bonus for just holding the bullseye (it is by far the easiest to hold) but when all four territories of the bullseye were held, a kind of universal embassy to interact with each of the other continents you'd have (nod to Hoff).

The 20 different continents you're suggesting could all be worth the same - they're identical - or you could assign them values in the haphazard fashion that a clockboard itself does, making continents 1, 2, 3, and 4 worth 1; 5, 6, 7, 8 worth 2, etc.

[sully800]

I couldn't find the original thread where you said this was posted, rocksolid...It wasn't listed at the beginning of the "map ideas" thread or in the developmental atlas so I'm assuming its not being worked on? If that's the case I'm happy to finish it up, since its relatively easy from what I've done so far.

As for the continents, I thought about applying random values for the different sections but I would prefer not to because it increases the "luck factor". Your armies could all just happen to start in the higher valued continents and give you a good advantage that you didn't create. Since each of the continents (except the bullseye) has the same number of countries and borders I would prefer to keep all of the bonuses the same.

As for the bullseye having a varied bonus- its certainly an interesting idea. My problem with that is as someone gains control of a few continents there bonus would get very large rather quickly. This would mean everyone should want to take the bullseye away from that player, but since their bonus would keep escalating it would become easier and easier to hold the bullseye even though everyone else would want to take it away more and more. It seems that it would have the opposite effect of what I would like to see because it would make the person with a few continents + the bullseye too powerful to stop.

However, as I write this, you have given me an idea. Perhaps we could simply reverse your proposal! So that if someone holds the bullseye they get a larger bonus, but there was some kind of deduction for holding other continents or a lot of countries. This would mean that as one person becomes powerful it would be a disadvantage to hold the bullseye. However if they gave it up it might allow a weaker player to reap the benefits of a continent with a large bonus and few borders and bring them back in the game. Hmmm, I like the idea write now because it sounds like it would yield unique strategies (somewhat like the irridated territories in USApocalypse).

[sully800]

Here's an update-


I...
-fixed the label on "small" in the upper right corner
-added a diagram to better show what the continents are
-added some graphic darts around the title
-enlarged the bullseye and triple ring because I think they were too small to put the army numbers on. I haven't tested them with numbers or army shadows yet but it looks big enough to me.

[AndrewO]

Looks like a great map sully, can't wait to play it!

One small, slightly pedantic point though... I always thought the term used in darts was 'treble' rather than 'triple'

[sully800]

Yeah, I'm not a huge darts player so I tried to look for the proper term. I found some instruction websites calling it triple and some calling it treble. It doesn't matter to me either way, so if treble is the proper word I can use that.

Also, I just did some testing with army shadows, using the same size as the ones on the classic map. They would fit every where decently except for the inner bull, which is just too small. So I'm thinking about keeping the inner bull in once piece and splitting the outer bull into 3. I can perhaps name them Left/Right/Bottom Bull, and that would also solve the problem of the bullseye being too easy to hold.

[AndrewO]

If you did that you could maybe have a one army bonus for the bullseye itself, and then one less for the bull continent?

I have heard both terms used as well, but i ust had a little look and the official site calls it 'treble'... http://www.dartswdf.com/aa_darts/playdarts.html

[maritovw]

So I'm thinking about keeping the inner bull in once piece and splitting the outer bull into 3. I can perhaps name them Left/Right/Bottom Bull, and that would also solve the problem of the bullseye being too easy to hold.

or you could still split the bullseye in four, but instead of inner-outer, split it like a pie in four pieces (you could call it top/bottom/left/right), and each bullseye piece would be connected exactly to 5 continents (splitting outer in three would ruin the symmetry) , that would also make it harder to hold...

[sully800]

Hmm, and make no division between the two rings of the bullseye? Brilliant! I guess I had a bit of trouble thinking outside the box there. It would make traveling across the map a bit harder, but thats probably good because owning the bullseye seemed like too much of an advantage before.

What does everyone think about the bonus for the center? I will probably scrap the idea of it detracting points for holding other continents because that would be very confusing. Unless other people love that concept.

Otherwise I think the bullseye has to have a bonus of at least 3 or 4, even though its only a little harder to hold than the rest (simply because it has more neighbors, but the same about of borders).

[zarvinny]

I like the idea, should be very fun to play

Everybody will get 4+ armies a turn in the beginning.

If you play on it with 3 or 4 people, you'll get 9 or 7 armies at the beginning, and you might catch a slice of da pie and get 2 more, just cause your armies were there to start.

I will reiterate: I like the idea

[rocksolid]

...or make the 25 a single territory, and the 50 a divided territory (3 or 4 or even 2, or even one, but I think divided would be better) with a bonus of 3 for holding all territories that make up the 50 and -2 for the undivided 25 - so that the bullseye is easy to hold if you take the 25 (only one border) but not worth nearly as much as if you hold it without the 25.

[gavin_sidhu]

Nice and simple map.

In the instructions i think that in the third point (about continent bonuses) You should cut of the tip of the triangle in the diagram and note that there are 4 countries in each continent.

[Marvaddin]

Guys, I cant describe how bad I believe this map is. The whole system to name the countries is one very very VERY annoying thing. You cant do a simple attack without read the legend. The number out of order makes it even more annoying. I also cant see any logic in the names of the rings. The continents having only border countries is pretty ridiculous too, in my opinion.

One more thing, by the legend, you can think all continents need control the bullseye. That yellow triangle is confusing.

Sincerely, this is one of the worst map ideas I ever seen. I would like to ask you consider abandon it. Do you imagine people really playing it? How about a poll?

[hwhrhett]

THANK YOU, i love the map, i suggested in june, but got lots of nay-sayers, and im too lazy to make it myself. send me a msg when your finished, id love to play it.

[reverend_kyle]

Guys, I cant describe how bad I believe this map is. The whole system to name the countries is one very very VERY annoying thing. You cant do a simple attack without read the legend. The number out of order makes it even more annoying. I also cant see any logic in the names of the rings. The continents having only border countries is pretty ridiculous too, in my opinion.

One more thing, by the legend, you can think all continents need control the bullseye. That yellow triangle is confusing.

Sincerely, this is one of the worst map ideas I ever seen. I would like to ask you consider abandon it. Do you imagine people really playing it? How about a poll?

I agree but even SOME people like the crossword map.

[Molacole]

why is pink double?

[sully800]

Guys, I cant describe how bad I believe this map is. The whole system to name the countries is one very very VERY annoying thing. You cant do a simple attack without read the legend. The number out of order makes it even more annoying. I also cant see any logic in the names of the rings. The continents having only border countries is pretty ridiculous too, in my opinion.

One more thing, by the legend, you can think all continents need control the bullseye. That yellow triangle is confusing.

Sincerely, this is one of the worst map ideas I ever seen. I would like to ask you consider abandon it. Do you imagine people really playing it? How about a poll?

I know you criticize every map so I'm not taking this personally

But yes, I do think people will play this map, because every reply on here except for yours has been positive. I think a lot of people agree with me in that they want to play a map that is completely DIFFERENT. That is the goal.

Yes, I need to correct the legend with the yellow triangle to make it not go all the way to the center. I also though I should add that each continent contains 4 countries, and since that was mentioned here I will do so in the next update.

The logic in the ring naming comes from the game of darts. The Large and Small areas are each single values (with the large one being a bigger area). If you hit the double ring you get double points, and the treble ring is triple. None of that has an effect on this map except for the names.

And yes, the naming system for the countries is not preferable (having a label on the country is easier I admit) but as far as I can tell its the only method that will work with a map like this. If you are familiar with darts (or play the map a few times) you will know what the different rings are without looking, so you wouldn't need to check the legend each time. Labels for each country simply wouldn't be an option with 84 countries I don't think.

Overall I'm not considering abandoning the idea because I have had several people vehemently tell me not to. I knew when I created this thread that you would tell me to abandon the thought but so far you're a voice against many. I really do respect you as a poster and a player but you seem to be afraid of maps that are different than the norm.

[sully800]

why is pink double?

It was a mistake, it should have been "small" and is now corrected. A new update will be posted shortly with army shadows and the other improvements I just stated.