Logic dictates that there is a God!

[vtmarik]

You think Jesus is going to kill his followers? Honestly you won't stop being an absolute idiot will you?

Um, if I remember the tale correctly, Jesus will take the faithful to heaven to live an eternity in paradise.

When you go to heaven, you've died. Is this logic too complex for you? Shall I draw up some flow charts and graphs?

EDIT: For your soul to go to heaven or hell, your body has to die. That's the rules. Don't blame me, because I didn't make them. God did.

I believe the passage goes something like "Though your body may die, you will have eternal life." It's been many a year since bible school, and I really don't have the motivation to go research chapter and verse for you.

EDIT #2: I hereby name this page "Zyzzybaluba"

[jay_a2j]

You think Jesus is going to kill his followers? Honestly you won't stop being an absolute idiot will you?

Um, if I remember the tale correctly, Jesus will take the faithful to heaven to live an eternity in paradise.

When you go to heaven, you've died. Is this logic too complex for you? Shall I draw up some flow charts and graphs?

EDIT: For your soul to go to heaven or hell, your body has to die. That's the rules. Don't blame me, because I didn't make them. God did.

I believe the passage goes something like "Though your body may die, you will have eternal life." It's been many a year since bible school, and I really don't have the motivation to go research chapter and verse for you.

EDIT #2: I hereby name this page "Zyzzybaluba"

Ok, I see its time for a refresher coarse on "the rules".


Elisha was taken from the Earth to heaven without dieing. Those raptured will be taken without dieing also. "they will be transformed in an instant" refering to the transformation from flesh and bone (human) to a spiritual body. You do not have to die to go to heaven, but you have to be born twice to go.

[vtmarik]

Ok, I see its time for a refresher coarse on "the rules".


Elisha was taken from the Earth to heaven without dieing. Those raptured will be taken without dieing also. "they will be transformed in an instant" refering to the transformation from flesh and bone (human) to a spiritual body. You do not have to die to go to heaven, but you have to be born twice to go.

Ah, born twice, like it says in John 3:3-8.

Wait, I thought you had to just believe in Jesus... John 3:16?

Or was it drink His blood and eat His flesh.... John 6:53-54?

Or was it hate father, mother, siblings, and self and give up everything... Luke 14:26-33?

Or was it that one had to be more righteous than the Pharisees.... Matthew 5:17-20?


So confusing these rules.

[jay_a2j]

Ok, I see its time for a refresher coarse on "the rules".


Elisha was taken from the Earth to heaven without dieing. Those raptured will be taken without dieing also. "they will be transformed in an instant" refering to the transformation from flesh and bone (human) to a spiritual body. You do not have to die to go to heaven, but you have to be born twice to go.

Ah, born twice, like it says in John 3:3-8.

Wait, I thought you had to just believe in Jesus... John 3:16?

Or was it drink His blood and eat His flesh.... John 6:53-54?

Or was it hate father, mother, siblings, and self and give up everything... Luke 14:26-33?

Or was it that one had to be more righteous than the Pharisees.... Matthew 5:17-20?


So confusing these rules.

The rules aren't confusing at all.


"If you cofess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead you will be saved"

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotton Son (Jesus) that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"



"Go and sell everything you own and follow me" (who? Jesus of coarse)



you see a theam yet vtmarik?

[vtmarik]

you see a theam yet vtmarik?

Yeah, I see the theme, but what about Jesus talking about being more righteous than the pharisees, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, hating parents, siblings, self, and stuff? Have you forgotten that He said these things as well?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2r-kIBARMpM

[jay_a2j]

you see a theam yet vtmarik?

Yeah, I see the theme, but what about Jesus talking about being more righteous than the pharisees, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, hating parents, siblings, self, and stuff? Have you forgotten that He said these things as well?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2r-kIBARMpM

You're taking it out of context.


The basics....Believe in Him, that he died for your sins, was raised from the dead and follow his teachings.

[vtmarik]

You're taking it out of context.


The basics....Believe in Him, that he died for your sins, was raised from the dead and follow his teachings.

John 3:16. I know.

But if that's it, why does Jesus say all the other things that are in the bible? Was Luke wrong? He can't be wrong, The Bible is God's Word, it's perfect. So, Luke must be correct as well. That tells me that when Jesus told him, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33) that He meant what he was saying. There is no contextual error here, he said that one must hate everyone to become his disciple. However, he also taught that one should love God, and love their neighbor (Luke 10:25-28). Since God's word is perfect, these must be correct teachings. But if all we have to do is believe that He was sent to die for our sins and become our savior (like he told John), why did Jesus also teach what he told to Luke?

It doesn't make sense. Why is it so hard for you to see that?

[jay_a2j]

So, Luke must be correct as well. That tells me that when Jesus told him, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33)

That scripture refers to loving these people, even self more then Him. Farther down in that chapter he says, "any of you who does not give up everything he cannot be my diciple".


"He who loves his life will lose it, but he who hates his life shall find it."


Its all about living for Him, not mother, father, sister or brother. Not even yourself.



Not hard to comprehend that.







[/quote]

[qeee1]

Were it not for the God part... (and the christians) the bible wouldn't be a bad book for moral instruction.

[happysadfun]

So, Luke must be correct as well. That tells me that when Jesus told him, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his mother and father, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33)

That scripture refers to loving these people, even self more then Him. Farther down in that chapter he says, "any of you who does not give up everything he cannot be my diciple".

"He who loves his life will lose it, but he who hates his life shall find it."

Its all about living for Him, not mother, father, sister or brother. Not even yourself.

Not hard to comprehend that.

You're supposed to love god so much that in comparison it seems like hate

[vtmarik]

That scripture refers to loving these people, even self more then Him. Farther down in that chapter he says, "any of you who does not give up everything he cannot be my diciple".


"He who loves his life will lose it, but he who hates his life shall find it."


Its all about living for Him, not mother, father, sister or brother. Not even yourself.



Not hard to comprehend that.

And yet 4 chapters before in Luke 10:25-28 he says that all you have to is love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and also love your neighbor to attain eternal life. Then He changes his mind and says to attain eternal life you must follow Him (Luke 18:18-22). Now to be Jesus' disciple you have to sell all of your possessions, give that money to the poor, hate everything but God, and so you will enter heaven. (Luke 14:26-33).

And yet, according to John 3:16 all we have to do is accept that Jesus was sent down here to die for our sins.

Since Jesus is God and God is Perfect, then Jesus should have given the same answer for every time he spoke about eternal life, but here we have numerous examples of Jesus changing his answer. Again, this doesn't make any sense at all.

And if you're going to respond to my posts Jay, I ask that you respond to the entire post, not just the one section you feel like replying to while ignoring the rest.

[b-b5]

But VT, if we are to believe the bible as written we would have to believe in talking snakes. I can deal with water into wine, and at a stretch I can go with the feeding of the multitude, but tlaking snakes I just have to draw the line at.

[strike wolf]

Is that a joke?

[b-b5]

yes, I do believe the concept of talking snakes is a joke

[Bozo]

The thing about the bible is that it is all about comeing to your own conclusions about the hole, some people see the talking snake as a metaphore to give a face to evil and others literally believe it.

[strike wolf]

Give me a break, if jesus can turn water into wine then a snake in the right conditions can talk. Or maybe it's like that guy in the 1970's who killed people because his neighbor's dog told him to.

[jay_a2j]

And yet 4 chapters before in Luke 10:25-28 he says that all you have to is love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and also love your neighbor to attain eternal life. Then He changes his mind and says to attain eternal life you must follow Him (Luke 18:18-22).

Where do you see this "mind change"? "Love the Lord with all your heart, mind...." vs. "to attain eternal life you must follow Him." What do YOU see there? If you love the Lord with all your heart you would be following Him.

Now to be Jesus' disciple you have to sell all of your possessions, give that money to the poor, hate everything but God, and so you will enter heaven. (Luke 14:26-33).

EVERYTHING belongs to God. The above is a description of "following Him". We must be willing to give up all things to follow Him. Not that I am to sell my car or burn in hell but if God tells me too, that I would do it. (My possesions mean nothing)

And yet, according to John 3:16 all we have to do is accept that Jesus was sent down here to die for our sins.

and FOLLOW Him. If you truely accept Jesus into your life you are changed. And from that point all you do should be pleasing to God. God knows the heart and He knows who is sincearly accepting him. Those who are sincear will "follow" Jesus' example. Ya just can't say "Jesus I believe you died for my sins and you raised from the dead" and then go about your life "as useual". As if to pray a "just in case" prayer to avoid hell. We are changed at that moment, all sins washed away and we are made new. If you pray the sinners prayer and nothing changes in how you live your life ya better check your heart again.

Since Jesus is God and God is Perfect, then Jesus should have given the same answer for every time he spoke about eternal life, but here we have numerous examples of Jesus changing his answer. Again, this doesn't make any sense at all.

He is not changing His answer. Most of what you are refering to is what takes place AFTER you have accepted Him. Because there is a lack of understanding does not mean that there is no consistency. And thats not meant as an insult. Believe me, I have been a Christian for years and I have questioned things in scripture and will continue to do so. This process is faith building. Asking God questions is ok, there is nothing wrong with that. But we have to be willing to listen for the answer. Cause He will give us one.

And if you're going to respond to my posts Jay, I ask that you respond to the entire post, not just the one section you feel like replying to while ignoring the rest.

Please tell me what I have ignored? Sometimes I check the posts quickly and respond to parts of posts that "stand out to me", do to time restraints.

[cowshrptrn]

The main problem i have with religion is that it is inherintly immune to skepticism, which can be dangerous

Anyone can take a verse from the bible that vaguely hints at something that supports their cause, and all of a sudden everyone who is against it is an evil heathen.

[vtmarik]

The thing about the bible is that it is all about comeing to your own conclusions about the hole, some people see the talking snake as a metaphore to give a face to evil and others literally believe it.

You do know that the snake is just a snake right? St. Augustine invented the whole thing about the serpent being Satan.

Ask any Jew, the snake is just a snake.

[vtmarik]

Where do you see this "mind change"? "Love the Lord with all your heart, mind...." vs. "to attain eternal life you must follow Him." What do YOU see there? If you love the Lord with all your heart you would be following Him.

Mind change:

Love thy neighbor vs. Hate father, mother, wife, children, brother, sister, and self.

EVERYTHING belongs to God. The above is a description of "following Him". We must be willing to give up all things to follow Him. Not that I am to sell my car or burn in hell but if God tells me too, that I would do it. (My possesions mean nothing)

But didn't he? He said to get into heaven that you had to follow Jesus, and to do that you had to sell all your possessions.

Yet you still own a computer.... interesting...

and FOLLOW Him. If you truely accept Jesus into your life you are changed. And from that point all you do should be pleasing to God. God knows the heart and He knows who is sincearly accepting him. Those who are sincear will "follow" Jesus' example. Ya just can't say "Jesus I believe you died for my sins and you raised from the dead" and then go about your life "as useual". As if to pray a "just in case" prayer to avoid hell. We are changed at that moment, all sins washed away and we are made new. If you pray the sinners prayer and nothing changes in how you live your life ya better check your heart again.

John 3:16 does not say that you have to follow Him, merely that you have to believe that He sent His only Begotten Son to cleanse mankind of their sins... Now who are we supposed to believe more, Luke or John?

He is not changing His answer. Most of what you are refering to is what takes place AFTER you have accepted Him. Because there is a lack of understanding does not mean that there is no consistency. And thats not meant as an insult. Believe me, I have been a Christian for years and I have questioned things in scripture and will continue to do so. This process is faith building. Asking God questions is ok, there is nothing wrong with that. But we have to be willing to listen for the answer. Cause He will give us one.

And how does God give the answer? Through the Bible? That's not how it works. When someone writes a research paper, they cannot cite their own paper as proof of a claim.

Please tell me what I have ignored? Sometimes I check the posts quickly and respond to parts of posts that "stand out to me", do to time restraints.

Well, if your time is so restrained, maybe you should something more productive than arguing with me.. I have nothing but free time, so I'm gonna hang here.

[jay_a2j]

Mind change:

Love thy neighbor vs. Hate father, mother, wife, children, brother, sister, and self.

Not a mind change. Its talking about TWO different things! We are to love our neighbors (everyone). The later is talking about your commitment..... not to father, mother etc. but to Him!

But didn't he? He said to get into heaven that you had to follow Jesus, and to do that you had to sell all your possessions.

Yet you still own a computer.... interesting...

ROFL! Jesus said to the rich man who asked, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus replied, "Sell everything you own and follow me." Jesus must be #1. >>>>" You can not serve both God and money" <<<<

John 3:16 does not say that you have to follow Him, merely that you have to believe that He sent His only Begotten Son to cleanse mankind of their sins... Now who are we supposed to believe more, Luke or John?

When you buy something that has to be assembled you don't read step one and ignore the rest expecting it to be finished. When you are done being obsurd let me know.

And how does God give the answer? Through the Bible? That's not how it works. When someone writes a research paper, they cannot cite their own paper as proof of a claim.

God can give the answer in different ways. The most common is what only Christians can understan, called the Holy Spirit. The Bible too can give an answer. I have even asked God a question and just sat there pondering it.... all of the sudden the answer pops into my head. (It's a God thing)

Well, if your time is so restrained, maybe you should something more productive than arguing with me.. I have nothing but free time, so I'm gonna hang here.

Get a job or something.... lol

[Truman]

Lol. I can see how Vtmarik really has to have it spelled out for him to understand. I could make a topic here called "Bible Contradictions" for anyone to comment on. Remember that website I referred you to, Jay, called "jude3.org"? Well, since I already answered approximately 108 there, I assume it'll be easy to answer the acclaimed contradictions here. I'll make the topic on Saturday and anyone can post up to 15 contradictions at a time.

I love debating atheists. It's like shooting fish in a barrel: you just can't miss.

[vtmarik]

Redacted, because you two are just dumb and I refuse to lessen my IQ by trying to think down to your level.

[heavycola]

Lol. I can see how Vtmarik really has to have it spelled out for him to understand. I could make a topic here called "Bible Contradictions" for anyone to comment on. Remember that website I referred you to, Jay, called "jude3.org"? Well, since I already answered approximately 108 there, I assume it'll be easy to answer the acclaimed contradictions here. I'll make the topic on Saturday and anyone can post up to 15 contradictions at a time.

I love debating atheists. It's like shooting fish in a barrel: you just can't miss.

Truman your posts are insufferable and arrogant and i wish you'd cock off, frankly. The reason i flew off the handle before was the hubris in your last smug rant, and that at the end of made me gargle with rage.

It's not shooting fish in a barrel, it's debate. Saying that, you imply that non-believers are morons.
But belief is not the same thing as knowledge. Do I believe in god? no. Can i prove he doesn't exist? no. Can you prove he does? no. So save your attitude, it makes you look like a twat.
Read jay's posts for pointers, he's usually a pleasure to argue with (even if he is wrong most of the time )

[Pilate]

Lol. I can see how Vtmarik really has to have it spelled out for him to understand. I could make a topic here called "Bible Contradictions" for anyone to comment on. Remember that website I referred you to, Jay, called "jude3.org"? Well, since I already answered approximately 108 there, I assume it'll be easy to answer the acclaimed contradictions here. I'll make the topic on Saturday and anyone can post up to 15 contradictions at a time.

I love debating atheists. It's like shooting fish in a barrel: you just can't miss.

Truman your posts are insufferable and arrogant and i wish you'd cock off, frankly. The reason i flew off the handle before was the hubris in your last smug rant, and that at the end of made me gargle with rage.

It's not shooting fish in a barrel, it's debate. Saying that, you imply that non-believers are morons.

Your point reminds me of how those republican fundamentalists said anyone who was against Iraq (or wanted to debate it) was automatically anti-American. It's nice to see people apply their religious thinking to real life, even if it does kill thousands of people.