A new map by DiM. looking for a name. V3-page 6. xml done

[DiM]

this got me thinking.... what about a monopoly risk game?

there's already a monopoly risk map. i think it's either abandoned or on vacation.

[yeti_c]

I wonder what Lack makes of this...

C.

[DiM]

I wonder what Lack makes of this...

C.

who knows? lack very rarely posts in the foundry

[rebelman]

DiM do you realise with this map you are doing something you swore never to do - create a symmetrical map !!!

[unriggable]

Essentially free points.

[Coleman]

I'd like to name this never going to be a map and then we can put it in stocks and throw rotten fruit and vegetables at it.

[unriggable]

Cartography Ass is a good title for you, Coleman.

[DiM]

DiM do you realise with this map you are doing something you swore never to do - create a symmetrical map !!!

it looks symmetrical but it's actually anyway you want it since any terit can attack any other terit. i just put them in a symmetrical shape to portray the wheel. i could have arranged them in a line and it still would have been the same thing

[DiM]

I'd like to name this never going to be a map and then we can put it in stocks and throw rotten fruit and vegetables at it.

again the question is: why?

i'm getting kinda tired of asking why and yet nobody can offer a decent answer

[mibi]

again the question is: why?

i'm getting kinda tired of asking why and yet nobody can offer a decent answer

DiM, I think the writing is on the wall, whether you choose to see it or not, is your choice.

Almost everyone is addicted to CC because they want to pit their strategic wits against others. This map doesn't allow that to happen AT ALL.

Even Doodle Earth requires a fair amount of strategy (I know you think it doesn't but my record on it shows otherwise), but this map wouldn't.

gamble? wtf? I think you need to find a different site if you want to gamble, there are plenty out there.

In my opinion, this map is one step in turning CC into a gas station with a slot machine.

Bottomline, let points be earned, not won or lost at the CC casino. thats lame.

People don't want pure luck, they want strategy too.

A definite no.

I'm sure you will find a lot of people that will play this map, but I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Honestly I'm not fond of this or that egg idea either.

Doodle Earth is one thing. It's still conquer club though (well at least very close to it).

These maps are just gambling. There is the strategy of should I attack, or should I let others attack first. But, honestly this will come down to luck of the dice 90% of the time.

Conquer Club is about strategy and having fun. Points are just a byproduct. I don't want to see a map that, in my opinion, is solely based on points.

A lot of people will play it. Point grabbers. I don't think that's a good thing. Earning points is what matters.

I remember how you stopped unfair freestyle point gaining tactics in 1v1 games. You might not have done it in a way that everyone liked or thought was proper, but nobody can use these tactics again to get points. To me, this map goes against what that person did. Conquer Club is about fun and strategy not about gambling for points.

1) Just because it is played does not make it good for CC. Points on CC are supposedly there to help gauge a players ability to play the game. Yes there are issues with how it is handled. Single, double, triple, freestyle, no cards.... These all affect the score but hey all have something in common.

By adding this the points become more meaningless. Ranks and badges are useless.

2)IT IS NOT A MAP
I am not saying people won't play I am saying it is stupid. An dhere is why.

You might as well not even make a map and have Lack reprogram the code to randomly select a player to win.
Here is how it works.

1) A player makes a game (2 player,3 player ,4 player .....whatever)
2) Game starts when last player joins.
3) Lack reprograms the code so random.org picks a winner based on the number of players
4) Points are automatically traded and there is no need for a map.
5) Do it again and complete destroy the point of this site.

THIS IS NOT CC. This is have fun gambling with fake points. If this was a gambling site, sure make it. It is not. It is a world domination strategy game.

All your idea does is replaces step 3 with 15 seconds of autoattack.

WM

concerning chance only maps...

Both of those maps are specifically designed to circumvent the points system and to reward players for absolutely nothing but luck. They are a disgrace to the map-making community in my mind and should not even have been considered in the first place.

This site is not for players to start 100 games on a poorly designed map that will be over on the first turn of the game. Rewarding points for something as blatantly idiotic as that is the worst thing you can do.

[DiM]

seeing that there's not much protest going on i think this map can be moved to main foundry. there's a market for such a map. i have done several updates and heck even the xml is done.

PS: btw mibi now go quote all the people that said they would play such a map. and then shut up and learn how to behave. end of discussion with you.

*where's that ignore posts script? ah there it is. clicking on ignore. much better now. the forum seems a better place without jerks*

[Coleman]

Explain to me how the first player in sequential won't win every game. If you would. Oh wait, that's the point? Silly me. We can't do this...

I have no idea how you can't see how broken this is. It completely destroys the point of the site, as pointed out above by several people. The arguments for are just from people who like gambling. This is not a gambling website.

This appears to be a waste of your time, I would encourage the pursuit of other projects.

[Twill]

I'd like to name this never going to be a map and then we can put it in stocks and throw rotten fruit and vegetables at it.

again the question is: why?

i'm getting kinda tired of asking why and yet nobody can offer a decent answer

To answer your challenge DiM, I'll offer my own personal (read: stepping out of my "official role" and into my role of a player of CC) reasons for this not being an acceptable map on Conquer Club.

• This is a site for a game of skill. It is not a site for a game of luck. As such, adding a map that involves no skill goes against the purpose of this site.
• The scoreboard and ranking system have been set up, tweaked and painstaking defended to try to give it some semblance of purpose for existing. Giving people a way to climb the scoreboard without any skill completely defeats the purpose of having it at all. I think most people would agree, the scoreboard and scoring system form a fairly central part of this site and incentive to climb it would be drastically reduced if someone could "gamble" their way up it.
• The CC Multi-hunting team spends hours and hours every week searching through multi reports for two reasons, one - to stop people from having their gaming experience ruined by people who refuse to employ strategy and two - to stop people from abusing the scoring system
  
  • The first one, yes, if people play your map it is their choice, the can choose to remove strategy from their game
  • the second one does not, however, affect only the members of the game, but again the ranking system for the entire site and as such forces something unwanted upon those who choose not to play your map.
• Finally, let me just say that it's not in the spirit of the game or the site. CC has let a lot of weired and wacky maps go up, but all pay homage to the spirit of the game - that it involves thinking, strategy and cunning as well as several sacrifices to the dice gods.
  Your map does not pay this homage, it does not live within the feel, purpose or heart behind this site and as such would dilute that core reason for coming and playing. It is simply a map for map sake and that is not what the foundry was established to do.

Allowing this map into play would, in my opinion, cause serious harm to the entire scoring system - one of the major incentives for many people to play and a feel good factor when you rise in ranks.
Additionally it would cheapen the site and dilute the core "game of strategy" spirit with which it was founded.

I hope that that answers your questions. This map, while it serves a definite purpose and would no doubt be enjoyable for some is not only inappropriate but actually dangerous to the site in many ways.

Have a good one
Twill - player (with a really low score)

[Incandenza]

Allow me to be but the latest voice to opine that this map (if it could even be called such) is an appalling idea. I believe the term that could be used here is "woefully misbegotten."

Just because there might be a market for this map, that doesn't mean that the map should be made. A slightly strained analogy would be that, even though there might exist a market niche for child pornography, that doesn't mean that it's in the community's best interest for that market niche to be filled. Of course, this analogy is far beyond what DiM proposes to do, but the essential point remains: just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should.

DiM, I've read a lot of your posts and kept loose tabs on AoM while it was in progress, and you've always struck me as a reasonable guy. Perhaps a bit nuts, and certainly no stranger to brutal honesty, but reasonable nonetheless. If you can offer an argument for this map other than "Hey, I'm just giving the people what they want," then I'm sure people will listen. But to continue to toe that party line, knowing that this map perverts the basic concept of this website and panders to the lowest common denominator... You're doing yourself a disservice, no doubt about that. And to pull the tired old "don't like it, don't play it" argument is just plain insulting.

People already have ways of essentially gambling on this site. Feeling lucky? Try a 1v1 on AoM or KotM or Pearl Harbor, where the drop more often than not decides the winner. Feeling lucky? Jump into a freestyle triples games with two cooks against SkyT and his minions, where you could potentially walk away with 50+ points.

And the mods (and the community as a whole) are engaged in an ongoing effort to curtail the acquisition of points through shortcuts and loopholes rather than skill. The freestyle rules were modified, and plans are supposedly underway to have some sort of guideline for excessive account sitting. The scoreboard exists for a reason, and while it's not perfect, it's miles better than it would be should this perversion make it into live play.

You're not making a map in good faith. It's more important for you to be right than for you to make a map that will enhance the CC experience, much like AoM did. This isn't about a map that has subject matter that people object to. If someone wanted to make a My Lai map, or an Auschwitz map, or a 9/11 map, that would be one thing. But this map isn't edgy, or controversial, or even all that interesting. It's just stupid. It's a bad idea, and there's no way that you can't see that.

Let it go. Walk away, have a mod lock this thread (and mibi's GP thread), and we can all move on as if this never happened.

Because here's the real thing: this map threatens the very existence of the site. CC gets a lot of its business through word of mouth. Would you like to be the bloke that caused people to second-guess recommending this game to their friends?

[freezie]

I do not get into the foundry much, but upon hearing this, I thought I would leave my -little- oppinion here:

CC is not a Gambling site, but a world domination site.

Blah blah blah What other people said. It's all true.

You made a great map already: AoM.

This map is VERY far from what you proved to be able to achieve. LEave this, work on some awesome project, and get another map quenched that will make CC be proud of their fellow founders.


People are already complaining about the dice randomness..I do not even want to see what would happen with this map.

Just a no, my no.

[Stoney229]

maps like these cheapen the whole site, in my opinion.

[DiM]

to twill and incandenza.

so basically from your posts i see 2 major problems.

1. the map would destroy the scoring system and thus the site.
2. the site is about skill not luck and thus even if players want it it shouldn't be allowed.

step by step:

1. as i have previously explained the map can't and won't screw up the scoring system.
yes you have the chance of winning points solely based on luck. when people see that they immediately imagine thousands of majors, former cooks becoming conquerors and all kinds of apocalyptic stuff like that. that's wrong and it takes just a bit of analysis to see why.
so let's say we have a guy with 800 points that eversince he started playing he's kept around that level. it's his plateau until he learns better tactics. but this map is quenched and he sees it as his chance of getting points easy. he plays it a few times and wins and gets to 1800 points. now he's in a bit of a problem. he would like to continue playing WoF but since this map is designed to work best with people of your rank or higher he can't find any other opponents willing to risk their points. so he then joins a few other games on other maps with people of his rank (1800 points) and loses miserably again and again and again simply because his true rank is 800 points so he's no match for people with 1800. what has this taught him? simple, wof will get you some easy points if you're really really lucky but will never get you above a certain rank and it will never be a sure way of keeping your rank once you get there.

let's look at another guy. he's a new recruit that knows how to play risk really well. he starts playing WoF and gets to 2000 points. since he can't find any other players of his rank willing to play him on WoF he decides to switch to normal games. he starts playing them and since he's a good risk player he manages to keep his rank and even increase it.

so you see if you're a poor player WoF won't get you far if you're a good player WoF will simply get you to a point from where only your skill will help you to advance.

WoF can't and won't screw the scoring system. yes in theory it's perfectly possible to win each and every game and become conqueror but that would take something like 200 games. very very low chances of doing that.

2. hmmm may i compare CC with poker? i have played quite a lot of poker in my life. nothing professional but i do know my way around the poker table.

i used to spend hours with 3 friends of mine playing poker during the night for minor sums of money. nothing fancy usually the winner simply got enough money to buy drinks and snacks for the next night.
in a usual game we had our share of luck and strategy just like we do here on the maps we have now.
but sometimes when we were bored or tired or for whatever reason we wanted something different we did this:

each of us put their bet on the table before the cards were dealt. and then we each got our cards plus the 5 cards the dealer puts on the table. and winner took all. no strategy just luck. we had loads of fun laughing at ones misfortune or pondering how the heck a guy won 3 in a row?
it was an alternative. just that. an option for when we wanted something different. we didn't play it all the time just on certain occasions when we were bored or tired. and one more thing when we played our lucky guy poker version we never had a winner to clear the table. after 1-2 hours and a few dozen hands played our chips were roughly the same.

so in conclusion #1 is not valid, as proved above and #2 is simply wrong because since we already have people that want to play it why not offer them this alternative?

[DiM]

Explain to me how the first player in sequential won't win every game. If you would. Oh wait, that's the point? Silly me. We can't do this...

I have no idea how you can't see how broken this is. It completely destroys the point of the site, as pointed out above by several people. The arguments for are just from people who like gambling. This is not a gambling website.

This appears to be a waste of your time, I would encourage the pursuit of other projects.

the first person that plays always wins, that's the whole point of the map. since the order of players is decided randomly it means we'll have a random winner everytime. simple as that that's the whole point of the map.

[hulmey]

DIM honestly , just admit when your wrong. Its part of being a man and not a child!!

[DiM]

People already have ways of essentially gambling on this site. Feeling lucky? Try a 1v1 on AoM or KotM or Pearl Harbor, where the drop more often than not decides the winner. Feeling lucky? Jump into a freestyle triples games with two cooks against SkyT and his minions, where you could potentially walk away with 50+ points.

how's that gambling?

i won a game on AoM where a guy had +12 from the start. he simply didn't know what to do so it was easy.

same deal on Kotm. i've defeated people that started with a few kings and even a small mountain. no gambling there. just skill.

as for the freestyle triples that's just stupid. since in triples more than any other game types luck plays a small part. if you have a bad drop or shitty dice strategy and good communication can still save you. in a singles game nothing will. so 3 cooks vs skyt (+skyt + skyt) = certain death no matter how lucky they are.

[ghostlygirl]

if you're so certain that people will play this map,
why not make a poll and let the people who PLAY on the maps on this site decide whether or not its a good idea? take a gamble DiM.. after all isn't that what you're promoting here in your map?

[DiM]

if you're so certain that people will play this map,
why not make a poll and let the people who PLAY on the maps on this site decide whether or not its a good idea? take a gamble DiM.. after all isn't that what you're promoting here in your map?

polls are meaningless. what's the best case scenario for the number of people that would vote in a poll here?? 100-150? maximum.

if you read the whole thread you'll also find my post where i suggest a bet between me and the people that say no to this map. that bet also includes a survey conducted via pm on 1000 people from this site. i think that's far better than a simple poll, don't you?

[ghostlygirl]

if you're so certain that people will play this map,
why not make a poll and let the people who PLAY on the maps on this site decide whether or not its a good idea? take a gamble DiM.. after all isn't that what you're promoting here in your map?

polls are meaningless. what's the best case scenario for the number of people that would vote in a poll here?? 100-150? maximum.

if you read the whole thread you'll also find my post where i suggest a bet between me and the people that say no to this map. that bet also includes a survey conducted via pm on 1000 people from this site. i think that's far better than a simple poll, don't you?

forcing your idiotic ideas on a thousand unsuspecting users is not something i would like to be a part of, thank you.

furthermore, who the f*ck do you think you are?

[DiM]

DIM honestly , just admit when your wrong. Its part of being a man and not a child!!

i'm the first to admit and apologize when i'm wrong but this is not the case here.

[ghostlygirl]

DIM honestly , just admit when your wrong. Its part of being a man and not a child!!

i'm the first to admit and apologize when i'm wrong but this is not the case here.

are you for real?
like, are you really this off
being a girl, i can tell you.. it's sad...
because girls are more willing to admit something is sad and pathetic when they see it as such. and i have never felt more sorry for someone, then i do right now. i am so sorry that you cannot see, even when your fellow mapmakers, mibi, widowmakers, yeti_c, twill and Coleman are telling you that this map is not a good idea.. how horrible a map like this would be.

i'm so sorry DiM..
i wish you'd just open your eyes, instead of having your idea squashed so hard.. you could just put your efforts into something else, that people would be 'all about' but you'd rather push this pos map...

poor thing.