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Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

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Postby unriggable on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:17 pm

got tonkaed wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:
suggs wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:I think it’s been proven pretty effectively, both in this thread and others, that while science, facts, and logic cannot prove that God exists, neither can they prove that he does not. Nevertheless, somehow an impression has been created that asserting that God exists is blind faith, and asserting that he does not is reason.
NO THERE IS SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE TO BELIEVE THAT GOD EXISTS. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE BELIEVER. I DONT BELIEVE BECAUSE THERE SEEMS NO VALID REASON TO-GOD HAS NOT "REVEALED" HIMSELF IN THE WORLD


The concept of a ā€œburden of proofā€ is out of place in this discussion, but it’s interesting that you bring it up. The placing of a burden of proof on one side of an argument reflects the prejudices of the one who places it.

For example, in a criminal case in the US court system, the burden of proof is placed on the prosecution. (Some say that in practice it is not so, because people assume if one is caught and accused one is probably guilty. That may be true, but we are talking about the theory) This reflects the preference of the lawmakers that it is better to let some guilty people get away, at least until they commit another crime for which there is better evidence, than to have an innocent person punished unjustly.


Uhm....yes, the burden of proof is on the prosecuters side. They have to proof something happened (or exists). I don't have to proof that I didn't do anything, they have to proof that I did something, which is logical. The same applies to this question.

They are not prejudices, they are logic.


I think part of the problem with this is that it doesnt reflect human history very much. Since humanity seems to have postulated...and has by in large accepted the assumption that some type of supreme being exists, that would seem to in theory be the stance that doesnt have to be proven, since by in large most people believe in it in some fashion.


Something has to be proven over nothing.
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Postby vtmarik on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:48 pm

luns101 wrote:
vtmarik wrote:I believe he was an illusionist who used his powers of prestidigitation to convince people that he had the right idea (which he did).


What was his "right" idea that he had which you agree with?


The whole idea that all you need is faith, earthly domains don't equal God's domain, don't be a dick, and do what you can to help out your fellow man.

He was a big believer in personal freedom, 'Judge Not lest Ye be Judged,' and to actually be an active part of God's plan rather than sitting back and just letting it happen to you (which is was the crucifixion was supposed to teach people, but that's another rant altogether).
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Postby Neoteny on Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:09 pm

MeDeFe wrote:I'd get my ass to Lake Superior in a flash.


Hells yes. I'm still waiting on that wine.

Snorri1234 wrote:Well ofcourse you have a point in that whether or not God exists is unfalsifiable, which means this isn't actually a scientifical question.


The whole idea that religion is unfalsifiable rubs me the wrong way. Using Jesus as an example since he was the target at the opening of the thread, can you imagine that if somehow science managed to prove that Jesus really was born of a virgin, or that he really did rise from the dead, that all the religious people in the world will say "Oh no, science and religion are two different, unrelated entities. You can't prove anything either way." Bullshit. I can't express enough that the whole idea is ludicrous. I would never hear the end of it. It is only because there is no valid proof for religion that the unfalsifiable stance is taken. If Jesus was born of a virgin, that is a physical thing, and is, if not in practice, theoretically falsifiable. And while a god may be unfalsifiable in the respect that you can't test for it, there is no reason to believe in god except for the babblings of ancient mythology.
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Postby CoffeeCream on Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:22 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote: The beginning of Romans 2 is important as well. It begins with an admonition not to judge others because everyone may be subject to the same sins. (I read it as "don't get on your high horse Anglican, I know you too well").


Yeah, I read that the other day. The verse that stuck out to me was verse 13 where it says,

"If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God."

I'm sure you Christians would say the Bible is God's way of communicating with us, I just wish that it would be a combination of words plus some verifiable action. When I asked my friend why this is so he told me that there were prophets who gave God's message but people still rejected it. Maybe that's what I'm doing by being so skeptical. I don't know but it's an interesting parallel.
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Postby comic boy on Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 pm

moomaster2000 wrote:Religion was created to explain things we didn't know. We want answers, and sometimes we are just too greedy. End-o-story.


Nope religion was created, and has always been used, as a means of control.
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Postby Beastly on Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:18 pm

I agree with comic boy...

however if Religion works for someone, then people should not be put down for their Religion.

I don't believe that god says don't do this and don't do that.(except for the 10 commandments, which were for laws of the land)

I haven't seen any of that yet.

I've seen Do this and Do that and get this result....
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:29 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:I'm sure you Christians would say the Bible is God's way of communicating with us, I just wish that it would be a combination of words plus some verifiable action. When I asked my friend why this is so he told me that there were prophets who gave God's message but people still rejected it. Maybe that's what I'm doing by being so skeptical. I don't know but it's an interesting parallel.


I'd say that scripture is one of the ways. For instance I've never flipped open a Bible with a problem on my mind that there wasn't some information that was applicable to my situation in the next page or so. That is something I take for granted. If I really need some guidance I can look into scripture with a specific question and get some answer (not always the one I want, mind you). God isn't limited to just that.

In the Anglican Church (and others that I've heard of) the scripture is part of three ways in which God makes his presence known. Scripture is important (for years I made the mistake of placing too little value on it) but there is also:

personal reason - using your own morality and discernment to find out what is right (It's a gift from God and he expects you to use it).

and

The Holy Spirit - this one is all about faith it's the emotional / spiritual side. I've often admitted that there is a point where I no longer rely on reason (it only takes you so far) and this is that point. Call it psychic connection, coincidence, or what have you I've found that when I'm doing what I know to be right I have an added insight into things or things just seem to work out right.

This can be simple like giving front row concert tickets to a group who was sitting in the back only to find out that they were out with a dying family member and you had made the day more special for them (true story that 's easily dismissed).

or more complex like wrestling with a line of scripture to the point that I could not read it aloud without crying and finally at a monastery having an insight that lead me to action in a specific ministry. In the Zen satori sense.

Plenty of people would explain this away (and of course it is only my interpretation of these situations), but really it is this which maintains me in the faith as much as anything else. I'm confident that whatever path another person might take this is the right one for me.
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Postby Neoteny on Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:35 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:I've often admitted that there is a point where I no longer rely on reason (it only takes you so far) and this is that point.


Yeesh...
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Postby daddy1gringo on Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:33 pm

CoffeeCream wrote:
luns101 wrote:Nothing that this world offered me through education, philosophy, counseling, etc. was able to produce that change in my life. I know for a fact that my life was changed supernaturally. I don't expect you to believe it, but I know from trying to change on my own that it was pointless. I was changed by God...not through my own efforts.


This is what I'm talking about. I've talked to people who say they were in trouble with the law, but then they somehow "found" Jesus. They almost never explain to me what they mean by that, but I can see the change in how they act towards other people. How does someone accomplish this?


Well, it’s not something that you accomplish. All you need to do is ask for it. God is the one who does it; He’s the only one who can. This goes back to what you observed in John Ch. 3. It is what happens when one is born anew, or from above.

When you are born to your earthly parents, you belong to them, share their characteristics, and become part of their family. You have the right to live in their house, and they have the responsibility to feed and protect you, and to guide and discipline you.

It’s the same when you are ā€œborn againā€ to your heavenly Father. A ā€œnew creation,ā€ a new you, is born and lives in you, which shares His characteristics, and you belong to Him, become part of his family. He becomes your provision and protection and begins to guide and discipline you.

It’s that ā€œregenerationā€ you talked about that is necessary in order to ā€œseeā€ or understand the kingdom of God. The new creation is part of God’s kingdom, so through it he can begin to show you things that make no sense to the eyes, ears, and mind of the flesh.

It also brings about changes on the outside. Everybody’s different. I know people who immediately got freed from addiction to heroin, cocaine, or alcohol, no cold turkey and no withdrawal symptoms. Others walked away from other life-controlling habits without a desire to go back. For others it’s a gradual thing. Getting freed took, or is still taking, discipline and choices, and treatment, but always they know God has been with them, helping and strengthening them. Either way, as the new creation grows, behavior changes more and more in line with God’s Kingdom.

That is what Jesus bought for us with his sacrifice on the cross. As in the story I told with the judge and his daughter, he required the penalty, then paid it himself. The judge had to leave the bench and take off his robe. The Son had to leave heaven and put on humanity. All my sins had to be forgiven before I could come into the presence of a perfect God and be changed.

That’s how you ā€œaccomplishā€ it. You ask for God to forgive all your sins, because of what Jesus did for you at the cross, and you ask him to come and live inside of you, and make you a new person. Romans 10:9,10: ā€œIf you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved, for with the heart one believes and so is made righteous (innocent) and with the mouth he confesses and so is saved.ā€ Is this a ā€œleap of faithā€ as some say? The word for ā€œbelieveā€ here has not so much the sense of a mental thing, as a choice to trust or rely on something.

I look at it this way. Say there’s a pond near you where you like to skate in the winter. In the early months, you stop by from time to time to put your toe on the ice and put a little weight on it. You hear the cracking and retract your toe. The day you don’t hear any, you cautiously put down your whole foot. No noise? The other foot. Hear the cracking? Scramble off and go home. Finally the day comes when you take a few steps on the ice, maybe throw a rock in the middle and there’s no cracking. Then you go home and get your skates. Your first few minutes skating are tentative, but as time goes by and the ice holds you up, you gain confidence.

Is that logical proof that you won’t fall in? Not really. Is it blind faith? Not that either. It’s experiential evidence. It’s been 32 years since I first stepped out on that pond, almost twice as long as I had lived before it. Though I’m still not much of a skater and spend a lot of time on my butt, I can tell you that this pond is frozen solid and will hold you up. But my saying it isn’t going to give you confidence. You’ve got to experience it for yourself. Psalm 34:8: ā€œO taste and see that the Lord is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him.ā€

If you want more help in doing that you can PM me if you want.
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Postby Backglass on Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:08 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
Backglass wrote:
Of course the easiest thing for any god to do would be the giant face/light/orb in the sky speaking to the world at once in all languages. For that matter forget the visual...just the voice would do. Surely a god that can create entire solar systems can pull this off. But as you say, maybe this isn't a gods style.

But it must be something undeniably godlike. None of this hiding in the shadows with mysterious, unprovable "signs".

... if a god can create life from nothing, surely it can also be in two, three or one thousand places at once...no?

If a god were to communicate in some way (dream, face in sky, voices, grilled cheese, etc) that, oh, the moon would disappear for one week...and then it did...I would consider that proof.

Or make everyone on the planet mute for a day.

Or for an hour we could have a conversation with our pets. Gods have made animals talk before...correct?

Or turn Lake Superior into Wine.

What I don't consider proof is hundreds of thousands of people watching a TV preacher and one persons MS goes into remission.

Fine. We don't have to "see" it. It could place a common message planted in every humans mind simultaneously, worldwide. That would do it.

Or how about this..... Every house plant in the world begins to burn and a voice speaks out of it. Not one person alone, with no evidence...but everyone at the same time. ;)


OK, so let's say God does one or more of these things. What would happen then, with you personally, and with the rest of the world?


I, and everyone else, would believe that supernatural gods exist.

unriggable wrote:A word of advice (no pun intended) don't look forward to those signs ever happening.


I'm not, because gods exist only in the minds of men.
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Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:03 am

Backglass wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:OK, so let's say God does one or more of these things. What would happen then, with you personally, and with the rest of the world?


I, and everyone else, would believe that supernatural gods exist.


OK, Then what? What would be the result of that?
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:56 am

We'd all know for sure that god exists, the fruitless discussions would end, we wouldn't have to resort to interpreting texts of dubious origin to gain "insight", or rather "guesswork", regarding the nature and will of god.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:05 am

Neoteny wrote:
The whole idea that religion is unfalsifiable rubs me the wrong way. Using Jesus as an example since he was the target at the opening of the thread, can you imagine that if somehow science managed to prove that Jesus really was born of a virgin, or that he really did rise from the dead, that all the religious people in the world will say "Oh no, science and religion are two different, unrelated entities. You can't prove anything either way." Bullshit. I can't express enough that the whole idea is ludicrous. I would never hear the end of it. It is only because there is no valid proof for religion that the unfalsifiable stance is taken. If Jesus was born of a virgin, that is a physical thing, and is, if not in practice, theoretically falsifiable. And while a god may be unfalsifiable in the respect that you can't test for it, there is no reason to believe in god except for the babblings of ancient mythology.


I didn't say religion was unfalsifiable. Only God can not be proven to exist or not exist. But as you said, there is no reason to believe he exists.
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:10 am

Snorri1234 wrote:I didn't say religion was unfalsifiable. Only God can not be proven to exist or not exist. But as you said, there is no reason to believe he exists.


Except, of course, taking the statistical likelihood of such a being existing and comparing it to the size of the universe.

The possibility, given what little we know of the universe and some of the newer macrosciences, still exists. It's enough to keep an ear out for it at the very least.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:08 pm

But he doesn't exist inside the universe I believe.
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:08 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:But he doesn't exist inside the universe I believe.


If he doesn't exist inside the universe, then he doesn't exist. The concept of something existing outside the universe requires more mental gymnastics than thinking god exists within the universe.

And I can't, for the life of me, figure out whose side you're on lol. You must be agnostic. :wink:
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:49 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:But he doesn't exist inside the universe I believe.


If he doesn't exist inside the universe, then he doesn't exist. The concept of something existing outside the universe requires more mental gymnastics than thinking god exists within the universe.


Yeah I know, but since believers claim that God existed before time and created the universe, this means that God existed before there was an universe, which means he is able to exist outside of the universe. Just because we can't grasp this concept doesn't mean it isn't possible, I mean, we can't grasp the concept of infinity but we use it all the time in math and science.

And I can't, for the life of me, figure out whose side you're on lol. You must be agnostic.

I am an agnostic atheist, but mainly I just like to debate and try to argue both sides of the argument at the same side.
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:57 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:Yeah I know, but since believers claim that God existed before time and created the universe, this means that God existed before there was an universe, which means he is able to exist outside of the universe. Just because we can't grasp this concept doesn't mean it isn't possible, I mean, we can't grasp the concept of infinity but we use it all the time in math and science.


You're right, but the concept of infinity doesn't leave me feeling as intellectually drained (plus, god and math don't quite work well together... see the Genesis "day controversy" and young-earth creationism) as the concept of an existance outside of existance that controls everything in this existance... I can (just) handle multiverse hypothesis, but the god hypothesis is just absurd in that respect.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:08 pm

Neoteny wrote:You're right, but the concept of infinity doesn't leave me feeling as intellectually drained (plus, god and math don't quite work well together... see the Genesis "day controversy" and young-earth creationism) as the concept of an existance outside of existance that controls everything in this existance... I can (just) handle multiverse hypothesis, but the god hypothesis is just absurd in that respect.


The thing about it is that all those subjects are impossible to imagine. Since they are impossible to imagine, I cannot even begin to fathom how they would work. They are all absurd.
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:28 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:The thing about it is that all those subjects are impossible to imagine. Since they are impossible to imagine, I cannot even begin to fathom how they would work. They are all absurd.


:D Tis true, tis true.
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Postby b.k. barunt on Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:31 pm

Did Adam and Eve have navels?


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Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:35 pm

Neoteny wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:The thing about it is that all those subjects are impossible to imagine. Since they are impossible to imagine, I cannot even begin to fathom how they would work. They are all absurd.


:D Tis true, tis true.


You guys would both be interested in "the agnostic thread" where a lot of that was hashed out pretty thoroughly. I bumped it a while ago but it's probably back on about page 4 again by now. One of the Jesus Freaks surprisingly, and pretty effectively, argued that the most logical thing is to be agnostic. The reasoning was that the idea of God, as well as the ideas of what you have to assume began our universe if you assert that he doesn't exist (parallel universes, etc.) are all equally head-spinning and contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. I may not be saying it right, this is difinitely not my area of expertise. Ambrose, can you state it more clearly?
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Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:48 pm

vtmarik wrote:
luns101 wrote:
vtmarik wrote:I believe he was an illusionist who used his powers of prestidigitation to convince people that he had the right idea (which he did).


What was his "right" idea that he had which you agree with?


The whole idea that all you need is faith, earthly domains don't equal God's domain, don't be a dick, and do what you can to help out your fellow man.

He was a big believer in personal freedom, 'Judge Not lest Ye be Judged,' and to actually be an active part of God's plan rather than sitting back and just letting it happen to you (which is was the crucifixion was supposed to teach people, but that's another rant altogether).


This is interesting. Once again let me apologize for getting you all wrong, but you've got to admit that from most of your posts one could never have guessed, for instance, that you believe "all you need is faith."

So, if you don't mind my asking, and if CoffeeCream doesn't mind me hijacking his thread a little (though I think this is relevant) Why do you believe what you believe? And the God you believe exists, since he/it is evidently not the same as we Christians believe, what is he like? I'm not being facetious or sarcastic at all. I'm curious, and I think it can shed light on the discussion.
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Postby daddy1gringo on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:07 pm

Just bumped the agnostic thread to page 1 again. It's a good read.
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Postby unriggable on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:07 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:Just bumped the agnostic thread to page ! again. It's a good read.


Bumped it to page!

(remember not to shift + number)
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