Feedback on Foundry Process from some new blood (was Puget)

[wicked]

(a continuation of the off-topic debate in the Puget Sound thread)

2. Wicked, you speak of the foundry like you actually know what goes on here, I actually question your sudden presence here.

For as long as I've been here, map makers have been begging people to come into the foundry and participate. So much so, recent threads in General Discussion have been added to garner interest. No one's presence should be questioned at all, rather welcomed. If I or anyone else who's not a regular here has an interest in a map, then <gasp> we might actually come here to support/discuss the map we're interested in. Be nice to the "newbies", and they might actually come back. It's what's needed here, this isn't and should never be a closed group of just map makers.

3. Discussion of the foundry process always starts in the threads where the process isn't working. Get used to it.

hmm... see that's the negative attitude I've been seeing, the one people have been complaining about, the one that drove away two cartographers. That was the issue with the discussion in the Puget Sound map thread, that shouldn't be the place to discuss the process, or as was happening with Puget Sound, the actual map discussion gets lost in the bickering over process and what belongs where. Discussions about process belong here, as I'm doing now. This is still part of the forums, and as such, threads are meant to stay on topic.

5. I never see Tisha commenting on other peoples maps so I am not surprise people haven't return the favor. Also, who ever moved this to the forge should have recognized this, and its lack of appeal... i mean discussion.

First of all, there's no requirement for any map maker to go comment on other maps. Sure it would be nice, but some may just want to do their own map. Second, there were comments on it and interest in it. Just because it's not some complex map, doesn't mean it won't have appeal to the masses. I got news for ya, not everyone likes complex maps, that's why there's a variety out there.

[bedub1]

I got news for ya, not everyone likes complex maps, that's why there's a variety out there.

I HATE complex maps. I think Age of Merchants and Pearl harbor among many many others are some of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

I think Australia and CCU are two of the BEST maps on here.

[gimil]

I like how you have only quoted mibi in this thread . . .

What i am currently not understanding is what exactly the problem you speak of is? What isee and others is that there has been a mistake in moving this map to early onto FF when it was not ready to be moved. This is not a common ocurrance so therefor is more a user error by the cartos and foundry users.

Newbies always feel that they are being personally attacked. Yes we openly accept newbies in here. If they dont like the way it operates and arnt happy with it then they leave, which is fine.

As for foundry issues being discussed in the thread they where brought up in, that is simple stroling off the road a little which happens in hundereds of threads, so the fact that your going out your way to start threads about this issue seems to me to be a little extreame. The foundry is andys back yard and this type of administration should be best left to him.

Your final quote is the opinion of ONE cartographer which doesnt warrent as a foundry problem.

[James Vazquez]

i'm new to this foundry business so bear with me. Seems like the process lacks a common element in most professions. Apprenticship..
Seems to me most are very open and willing to lend expertise to new chartographers. However the current process lacks a mentor which i feel could avoid the apperance of "ganging up" on new map makers.

In this particular case some time passed and then a flood of criticism some warranted and most simply ridiculous. Having a mentor or experienced chartographer to guide new map makers would eleviate this particular bump in the road.

My other point is as follows to expect new map makers to run with the big dogs right outta the gate is definetly not a positive process requirement. Standards must be upheld but a first map should be just that a first map.
Personal opinions on content should not be permitted or acknowledged. It is not and should not be fellow chartographers job to dictate what a map should be only the look and apperance. Some in this case believe the region is BORING or unoriginal. That is ridiculous.

If a map is boring noone will play it and should be dropped as needed. Being self employed for most of my life i can tell you first hand noone can predict what the majority of people will like. "PET ROCK" It is neough to hold standards on apperance content is should still be dictated by the map maker. Suggestions should be just that suggestions.

well now that i've take a page to speak please fell free to tell me how wrong i am and that i dont know what im talkin about

[wicked]

I was responding to mibi's thread, which is why he was quoted.

I'm not doing any "administrating", I'm discussing. I made this thread to stop the bickering in the other thread.

The map had addressed the issues brought up, gone through several revisions, done everything it needed to to be in FF, which Andy agreed with. Even the issues being brought up now are very minor, so why shouldn't it be in FF?

[gimil]

You appreticship idea sounds intresting but here my problem:

My other point is as follows to expect new map makers to run with the big dogs right outta the gate is definetly not a positive process requirement. Standards must be upheld but a first map should be just that a first map.
Personal opinions on content should not be permitted or acknowledged. It is not and should not be fellow chartographers job to dictate what a map should be only the look and apperance. Some in this case believe the region is BORING or unoriginal. That is ridiculous.

It is not the job of cartographers, but the community to give critisim, prasie and general feedback on a map. No one is expected everyone to be as fantastic as a map that widowmaker could make.

read thorught a few quenched map threads and youll understand the basic working of the foundry a little better then you will see what we mean by the standards that are expected.

[RjBeals]

I'm not criticizing you so don't get defensive, but wicked have you really been commenting on other maps? It seems to me that you've been with the Puget since the beginning and that's been it. I may not post as much as others, but i browse the foundry daily. Are you friends with Tisha or something? It seems like you're her coach? I haven't seen other foundry posts from you. Why don't you post a comment in my map?

I also don't see negative attitudes in our posts. I see more negativity from the map maker and her husband than the rest of us. We DID offer constructive criticism, but it was countered with "so what your saying is everything looks like shit".... how are we suppose to react to that?

And yes not everyone likes complex maps - I also fall into that category. It has nothing to do with visual style though. My first post may have been a little harsh - but that was because I finally read through the thread, and was surprised that the map was in Final Forge without me realizing. Although I don't think it was that bad - And I still stand behind all the comments I made.

But.... Correct me if I'm wrong - but I didn't see Andy's,

...has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. I've revived this thread from the pits of the Foundry furnace and have examined the contents. Nearly every major concern has been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard....

Did I miss it?

[gimil]

I was responding to mibi's thread, which is why he was quoted.

I'm not doing any "administrating", I'm discussing. I made this thread to stop the bickering in the other thread.

The map had addressed the issues brought up, gone through several revisions, done everything it needed to to be in FF, which Andy agreed with. Even the issues being brought up now are very minor, so why shouldn't it be in FF?

I feel it wasnt ready for final forge because most final forge maps tend to only need graphically tweeks. pugent isnt at that stage jsut yet (along with the civil war map) Andy has also agreed with me about the issue i brought up which suprises me because i expected that he would of brought the issue up himself before FF'ing the map.

[wicked]

I feel it wasnt ready for final forge because most final forge maps tend to only need graphically tweeks.

Well all that's been suggested are graphical tweaks?

[gimil]

Just incase anyone missed it

If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard....

[gimil]

I feel it wasnt ready for final forge because most final forge maps tend to only need graphically tweeks.

Well all that's been suggested are graphical tweaks?

redoing all boarders isnt a tweek, asking for an army number to be moved or asking for an increase on a glow so some text more visible is tweeks.

[Risky_Stud]

the thing is gimil, everytime she try's to redo the lines she gets the same problem. so it can't be fixed. same thing with the army circle issue.

[wicked]

I'm not criticizing you so don't get defensive, but wicked have you really been commenting on other maps? It seems to me that you've been with the Puget since the beginning and that's been it. I may not post as much as others, but i browse the foundry daily. Are you friends with Tisha or something? It seems like you're her coach? I haven't seen other foundry posts from you. Why don't you post a comment in my map?

I also don't see negative attitudes in our posts. I see more negativity from the map maker and her husband than the rest of us. We DID offer constructive criticism, but it was countered with "so what your saying is everything looks like shit".... how are we suppose to react to that?

And yes not everyone likes complex maps - I also fall into that category. It has nothing to do with visual style though. My first post may have been a little harsh - but that was because I finally read through the thread, and was surprised that the map was in Final Forge without me realizing. Although I don't think it was that bad - And I still stand behind all the comments I made.

But.... Correct me if I'm wrong - but I didn't see Andy's,

...has reached the ‘Final Forge’ Stage. I've revived this thread from the pits of the Foundry furnace and have examined the contents. Nearly every major concern has been addressed. If there are any other current concerns, please make your voice heard....

Did I miss it?

I comment on maps I'm interested in as that's all I have time for, and living in Seattle, I've been wanting a Seattle map for awhile (you can search for my comments in threads about that topic) where I posted several map ideas. That's just my point, people should be encouraged to come in and post about maps they're interested in, even if it's only one. When a particularly bad batch of maps came out (IMO), I came in here and commented on some then as well. It's obvious I'm not a regular here, but that shouldn't matter.

Some of the criticism was more map-bashing IMO, basically saying it sucked and had no appeal and things like "I never liked it so didn't comment before." When things are phrased that way, it does tend to put people on the defensive. For example, saying "it has no appeal" is not constructive criticism; saying "it would be a more appealing map if you did X or Y" is. Just a simple change in the wording comes across much more friendly and is actually conducive towards making progress.

You've got to go back to Oct 27 to see Andy's FF message. And I hate complex maps as well. I used to play every new map that came out, but within the last 6 months, have only played maybe 1/3 of the new ones.

[gimil]

the thing is gimil, everytime she try's to redo the lines she gets the same problem. so it can't be fixed. same thing with the army circle issue.

I offerd to take a look at the PSD to help solve the problem which will be fixable. Half way through downloading the file shes cancels the download and starts ignoring me.

[Tisha]

the thing is gimil, everytime she try's to redo the lines she gets the same problem. so it can't be fixed. same thing with the army circle issue.

I offerd to take a look at the PSD to help solve the problem which will be fixable. Half way through downloading the file shes cancels the download and starts ignoring me.

i didn't cancel the download

and i was ignoring your comment..

[gimil]

Oct 27th isnt a long time to go back wicked please stop mentioning this as if its a big deal.

But im tierd and going to bed. So ill properly comment on your last post once i wake up.

[wicked]

only mentioned that b/c I didn't know the page number gimil.

[gimil]

only mentioned that b/c I didn't know the page number gimil.

aw right sorry my bad, didnt take that info in correctly lol

[RjBeals]

You've got to go back to Oct 27 to see Andy's FF message.

Okay - I didn't go back that far I guess. Sure it was only a few weeks ago, but I'm used to most maps being in the foundry for many months.

I like you wicked. You should become a foundry regular.

edit... o wait, are you saying that you are not commenting on my dustbowl map because it doesn't interest you.. hmmm...

[James Vazquez]

well i guess that falls under experience in understanding previous protocol gimil. Seems like if i'm to understand the situation no fault of Tisha's that either noone payed attention to what was moving to final forge or it just fell through a loophole? is this your impression? either case its there and i feel Tisha shouldn't be penalized for this. She is working on the changes that were suggested, I'm just not sure she can weed through all the inappropriate suggestions and the pertinent ones.

I still stand by my mentor idea that way at least someone could sign off on the move to final forge. and clear up some of these mishaps. Not that i think it should be laid upon anyone who doesnt want to be a mentor or that the mentor should do any work at all but make clear the points you and a few others have brought up. Constructive critcism is much more palatable coming from one than a hoard. The site will still get their chance at posts.

However the map would be in better shape and fewer overall speed bumps. I will read the threads you suggested.

[AndyDufresne]

There are definitely some ways we can improve the Foundry. Coleman and I will continue discussing such things, and we'll get the community's input also.

Every map maker should know the critiques and advice that go into map making, aren't meant to be hurtful or aimed at the cartographer. Cartographers see their map as their baby, and rightly so...they've brought it into the world. But like a baby the map grows and changes. The map and child starts out with awe and wonderment. Full of fun and joy. Ideally you'd want to keep this feeling all the way through development and aging. But as kids grow they change. As maps develop they also change. Sometimes you as a cartographer may be tested, but realize that the end product is what matters. Raise a good child, make a good map, and you'll be proud.

Now, I honestly don't think I made any sense with the child analogy, so forgive since it's quite late. There is a point in there somewhere.

Bottom line: Everyone should be responsive to criticism. Lets all play nice. Everyone be happy, and eat a banana.


--Andy

[Gnome]

Every map maker should know the critiques and advice that go into map making, aren't meant to be hurtful or aimed at the cartographer. Cartographers see their map as their baby, and rightly so...they've brought it into the world. But like a baby the map grows and changes. The map and child starts out with awe and wonderment. Full of fun and joy. Ideally you'd want to keep this feeling all the way through development and aging. But as kids grow they change. As maps develop they also change. Sometimes you as a cartographer may be tested, but realize that the end product is what matters. Raise a good child, make a good map, and you'll be proud.

--Andy

uh...I guess Amen to that...I'm actually a bit bored about this discussion...there wasn't a need to create this topic anyway...I've seen a lot of maps that were critisised and redone all over...If you can't take some critisism than don't post your map here and make your risk site whit your own maps...
I know it's not fun to be in final forge and thinking that your map is almost done and than get a group of carographers on you that say your map is not finished yet...But that's life...

[mibi]

wow, what a waste of a thread. if you really wanted a meaningful discussion wicked, how about quote my more lengthy post in the puget thread and respond to that instead of starting a new topic just to get in your last-word.

[gimil]

Like i already said, this thread was a waste of time and is evidenly the result of tisha and wicked friendship rather than wicked carrying out her mod duties.

[rebelman]

waste of a thread ?????? ye sound like my granny.

threads like this that are more general than specific can be a help to the overall process especially when they attract input from new faces around the foudry - khaz's thread and dim's could be put in a similar category.

Discussion and comments about specific maps eg puget sound or dust bowl should be in those specific threads but threads lke this one are ideal for general discussion.

It actually is annoying / ridiculous when general discussion takes over the threads of individual maps. eg have a look at age of might and see how much of that thread is spammed with general discussions about map size, the competency of the cart. mods and several other off topic posts (im sure other threads are similar but as I read that one it drove me spare) - the place for general discussions is threads like this not individual map ones.