Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[daddy1gringo]

Try looking at it from the point of view of the atheist. It's heartbreaking. Christians get consolation from their delusion that there is another life afterward, which allows them the comforts of laziness and apathy. I, however, feel a sense of responsibility and empathy that I just don't see you, as a Christian, capable of sharing.

I'm sure that Mother Theresa regrets the comforts of laziness and apathy that her Christian delusion gave her. She's just one famous example. The many, many Christian missionaries that I know who left everything and face hardship, disease and armed opposition to bring aid to people like this BECAUSE of their faith shows your statement for the self-righteous, judgemental trash that it is. Oh, wait, it's those christians who are self-righteous and judgemental, not me!

[Backglass]

I'm sure that Mother Theresa regrets the comforts of laziness and apathy that her Christian delusion gave her.

Well, she certainly had plenty of doubts about her delusion, her memoirs now show.

Where is my faith?" "Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness... If there be God — please forgive me."

Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal,"

What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.

According to her letters, Mother Teresa died with her doubts. She had even stopped praying, she said in one. The church decided to keep her letters, even though one of her dying wishes was that they be destroyed.

Perhaps now we know why.

[unriggable]

Then again daddy there are a huge amount that just absorb resources and give back nothing, because they think that those that doe today will have a better life elsewhere.

[NaynNay]

I believe because what created the universe? other than that, I'm all for atheism

[Backglass]

I believe because what created the universe? other than that, I'm all for atheism

Magic Beans of course! I read it in a very old book so it must be true!!!!

[daddy1gringo]

Let me clarify my question. What would be the practical result? What changes would come of this "believing" you and everybody else are now doing? For yourself, what, if anything, would change in your actions or attitudes? For the rest of the world, what do you think would change in what they do or how they do it?

Everyone would become Christian (or some wild variation thereof). Therefore they would all be eligible for entrance to heaven and so god can be happy that it saved the souls of a huge percentage of the population.

Isn't that it's objective?

God wants us to behave a certain way, and he promises eternal life. If he ever decided to show himself, or to otherwise provide any proof of his existence, hell, i'd start behaving myself. But there is a massive get-out clause, isn't there? Faith is such a clever gimmick.

Okay, Backglass, these two have weighed in, I'm still waiting for your answer.

[daddy1gringo]

I'm sure that Mother Theresa regrets the comforts of laziness and apathy that her Christian delusion gave her.

Well, she certainly had plenty of doubts about her delusion, her memoirs now show.

Where is my faith?" "Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness... If there be God — please forgive me."

Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal,"

What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.

According to her letters, Mother Teresa died with her doubts. She had even stopped praying, she said in one. The church decided to keep her letters, even though one of her dying wishes was that they be destroyed.

Perhaps now we know why.

What I see here is the struggles that many or all people of faith go through, doubting God or themselves. John the Baptist, after declaring Jesus "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world," sent from prison to ask if Jesus was really the one waited for. Jesus cried from the Cross, "Eli, Eli lama sabachtani, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" Elijah, after his great victory at Mt Carmel, fled the Queen's threat and asked God to let him die.

To me this just contradicts what you and others say, that Christians don't question or examine their faith, just happily follow what they were taught as children. In the last few years, after some serious disapointments with what I had believed God sent me here to do, I went through serious doubts, which I wrestled out with him.

I also see that as the trust of God faltered, so did the zeal for the work, just strengthening my point that the faith was the motivation to compassion, not an escape from it. Not an opiate, but a stimulant.

[Backglass]

Let me clarify my question. What would be the practical result? What changes would come of this "believing" you and everybody else are now doing? For yourself, what, if anything, would change in your actions or attitudes? For the rest of the world, what do you think would change in what they do or how they do it?

Everyone would become Christian (or some wild variation thereof). Therefore they would all be eligible for entrance to heaven and so god can be happy that it saved the souls of a huge percentage of the population.

Isn't that it's objective?

God wants us to behave a certain way, and he promises eternal life. If he ever decided to show himself, or to otherwise provide any proof of his existence, hell, i'd start behaving myself. But there is a massive get-out clause, isn't there? Faith is such a clever gimmick.

Okay, Backglass, these two have weighed in, I'm still waiting for your answer.

I agree with Nuetrino. If a god irrefutably showed himself to the entire world today, I and everyone else on the planet would worship that god. How could we not? If your god did this, I would even out pray you.

Now...what about you?

If tomorrow it could be irrefutably proven gods do not exist, what, if anything, would change in YOUR actions or attitudes?

Would you jump from a cliff, not wanting to live without your security blanket? Would you press on with your life unencumbered by religion? Or would you continue to practice christianity anyway because of the peace it gives you?

[jay_a2j]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

They are not mutually exclusive! Lets say a mother makes a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, knowing that her son doesn't like turkey, she knows when he walks in, that he will choose to eat the ham sandwich. Moments later her son walks in and grabs the ham sandwich and starts to eat it. He had the free will to choose either sandwich.... yet he chose the ham as his mother knew he would. Not exactly a perfect analogy, but just because God KNOWS what we will choose to do, doesn't mean we don't have free will to make choices!

What you describe is not knowledge, it's a calculation of likelihoods based on previously assembled data. The mothers belief that her son would go for the ham sandwich wasn't true until he had taken it and started eating it.

Check Wikipedia for an introduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

I'm not sure Jay responds to actual reason, MeDeFe... Best to give up now, really, and try and debate with some of the more intelligent posters.

You don't understand the concept of free will.... now who was the less than bright one?

Uhm, that was not MeDeFe's point. God knows exactly what you will do, not based on previous experiences, but just because he knows it. Since he knows it, how can you argue that it isn't determined what you'll do? Because if it wasn't determined, then God wouldn't know it.

Say the mother jumped forward into the future and saw her son choosing the ham-sandwich and then jumped back into the present, does the son still have free will regarding choosing a sandwich? Because it's 100% certain which sandwich he'll choose and therefore he logically has no choice to do anything else.

I was talking to Guiscard, not MeDeFe. God knew Hitler would choose to invade Poland. God knew that Bill Clinton would be president for 8 years. God knew that you would read this post. We have free will. We all make choices. God merely knows what we will choose. A "lack of free-will" would mean that we do things against our will. This is absurd. We have free-will. Our choices are NOT pre-determined just pre-known by God. Yes the son STILL has free will to choose which sandwich he will choose, the mother has pre-knowlege of this. THAT does not make it not free will.

[Neoteny]

Try looking at it from the point of view of the atheist. It's heartbreaking. Christians get consolation from their delusion that there is another life afterward, which allows them the comforts of laziness and apathy. I, however, feel a sense of responsibility and empathy that I just don't see you, as a Christian, capable of sharing.

I'm sure that Mother Theresa regrets the comforts of laziness and apathy that her Christian delusion gave her. She's just one famous example. The many, many Christian missionaries that I know who left everything and face hardship, disease and armed opposition to bring aid to people like this BECAUSE of their faith shows your statement for the self-righteous, judgemental trash that it is. Oh, wait, it's those christians who are self-righteous and judgemental, not me!

I'm sorry; forgive my self-righteousness in defense of humanitarianism. I can't believe I just got insulted for caring for others. And I stand by my statement. Mother Theresa did many great things (She also said abortion was the greatest threat to peace. She may not have been the most lucid with her commentary). I'm not saying that people of faith do no good, but I think that most of them don't do it because of their faith, and even if they did, they don't deserve a cookie because of it. They deserve the cookie, among other nice things, because of their humanitarian efforts. I imagine that, were they not Christian, they would still be humanitarians. Judgemental I may be, but I find that quote to be telling of the Christian frame of thought: one that encourages laziness and apathy, and I do not apologize for it.

[Neutrino]

I was talking to Guiscard, not MeDeFe. God knew Hitler would choose to invade Poland. God knew that Bill Clinton would be president for 8 years. God knew that you would read this post. We have free will. We all make choices. God merely knows what we will choose. A "lack of free-will" would mean that we do things against our will. This is absurd. We have free-will. Our choices are NOT pre-determined just pre-known by God. Yes the son STILL has free will to choose which sandwich he will choose, the mother has pre-knowlege of this. THAT does not make it not free will.

I don't think you get the point here, Jay.
If there was a way (such as god) to determine an event to 100%, complete accuracy, then any free will involved in that event is gone. If something is determined, then it is not free. If god knows you will do something, then, by definition, you are incapable of doing anything else. Same with time travel (which is why the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON).

All that is left is a rather convincing illusion of free will.

[daddy1gringo]

I agree with Nuetrino. If a god irrefutably showed himself to the entire world today, I and everyone else on the planet would worship that god. How could we not? If your god did this, I would even out pray you.

Everyone would become Christian (or some wild variation thereof). Therefore they would all be eligible for entrance to heaven and so god can be happy that it saved the souls of a huge percentage of the population.

Isn't that it's objective?

Would they then love him? Would you?

[Backglass]

I agree with Nuetrino. If a god irrefutably showed himself to the entire world today, I and everyone else on the planet would worship that god. How could we not? If your god did this, I would even out pray you.

Everyone would become Christian (or some wild variation thereof). Therefore they would all be eligible for entrance to heaven and so god can be happy that it saved the souls of a huge percentage of the population.

Isn't that it's objective?

Would they then love him? Would you?

Love? What would be the reasoning? Simply because it exists and after millennia chose to show itself, everyone should just automatically love it?

Respect and Obey perhaps, but I doubt seriously everyone would fall madly in love with the creature that created disease...that allowed loved ones to suffer, that stood idly by as the world was at war and let children die of hunger.

I would bow & serve...because that's what you do when all powerful, supernatural gods show themselves. But I doubt I would love it. It's hard to say...never having seen an actual supernatural god.

And what of my question?

[The1exile]

the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON

Eh, I'm a bit stuck, I've been travelling through it for years now. Solutions?

[Backglass]

the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON

Eh, I'm a bit stuck, I've been travelling through it for years now. Solutions?

Was this your ad I saw in the paper?

[vtmarik]

the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON

Eh, I'm a bit stuck, I've been travelling through it for years now. Solutions?

Go forward in time to the point just after you started traveling. Then smash the machine. You'll be back.

[Neutrino]

the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON

Eh, I'm a bit stuck, I've been travelling through it for years now. Solutions?

Go forward in time to the point just after you started traveling. Then smash the machine. You'll be back.

With a damaged and potentially explosive machine, which functions by distorting the very fabric of space-time...

[The1exile]

Pfft, who needs a machine to travel through time. I have a kayak. Plus, that goes over water.

[daddy1gringo]

According to her letters, Mother Teresa died with her doubts. She had even stopped praying, she said in one.

Sorry, I meant to mention this in the other post. The letters couldn't tell you whether she died with her doubts unless she was in the process of writing one when she exhaled her last breath. As for the prayer thing, I haven't experienced as much suffering and sorrow as she did, and there have been times, recent ones, when God and I have not been on speaking terms. It happens in the best of relationships and doesn't need to be permanent.

[jay_a2j]

I was talking to Guiscard, not MeDeFe. God knew Hitler would choose to invade Poland. God knew that Bill Clinton would be president for 8 years. God knew that you would read this post. We have free will. We all make choices. God merely knows what we will choose. A "lack of free-will" would mean that we do things against our will. This is absurd. We have free-will. Our choices are NOT pre-determined just pre-known by God. Yes the son STILL has free will to choose which sandwich he will choose, the mother has pre-knowlege of this. THAT does not make it not free will.

I don't think you get the point here, Jay.
If there was a way (such as god) to determine an event to 100%, complete accuracy, then any free will involved in that event is gone. If something is determined, then it is not free. If god knows you will do something, then, by definition, you are incapable of doing anything else. Same with time travel (which is why the No. 1 rule of Time Travel is: DO NOT TRAVEL THROUGH TIME FOR ANY REASON).

All that is left is a rather convincing illusion of free will.

God can see into the future....(the RESULTS of our choices). I guess some people just can't grasp this concept. Kinda like "eternity".

[daddy1gringo]

Then again daddy there are a huge amount that just absorb resources and give back nothing, because they think that those that die today will have a better life elsewhere.

I would say rather that there are many who give back nothing in spite of what they believe. What I can tell you from all the Christians that I know is that in general, the more committed they are to God himself, the more committed they are to their fellow man, who is made in His image. You can’t say the same for atheism. There are many who use the belief that there is no God, and therefore that this life and this flesh are all there is, to pursue a self-centered life, and I don’t think you could claim that the most philanthropic atheists are the ones most committed to believing that there is no God.

But no, actually, I don’t recall ever meeting any Christian who made the absurd assertion that they didn’t have to help the suffering and poor because it is good for them. Statements like the one of CrazyAnglican’s which Neoteny said was “disgusting” are intended to explain that God, who sees a bigger picture, is not cruel just because there exists suffering in the world. We individuals who do not know everything are commanded to lay down our lives in charity and compassion. Some do; some don’t. But as I said, the ones who do obey that command tend to be the ones who also do believe that God has a loving purpose behind everything, as Anglican said.

[vtmarik]

God can see into the future....(the RESULTS of our choices). I guess some people just can't grasp this concept. Kinda like "eternity".

Yes, meaning that he can see the future according to our choices, meaning he can backtrack from that point to see which choices we'll make, hence no "free" in free will.

The idea that God can see the future means that he already knows what we'll choose and the consequences of the choices.

There was an earlier analogy that if a kid likes turkey sandwiches, he'll take a turkey sandwich regardless of whether or not there are other choices available. The postulate being that it's still a choice, regardless of the outcome.

Now, let's expand this analogy. Say you're an external observer and you look into the future and see the kid eating a turkey sandwich. From that, you can easily deduce what he chose to do. Now, if you look into the future and the events are hazy, that means that you can't see it because the choice hasn't been made yet, disproving omniscience in your case.

So, either God can see the outcome of our choices (and thus know our choices regardless of how free they are) or he can't see jack and isn't omniscient. Or, of course, he could be both at the same time.

With beings of this complexity, human comprehension falls far short of the mark.

[daddy1gringo]

Btw, Neoteny, I DO apologize, not for the content of my arguments, which I stand by, but for my tone. I allowed myself to get "pissed off" and worded my response in an unnecessarily insulting manner. Please forgive me.

[daddy1gringo]

Marik, what the heck are you doing up this late? Go to bed.

[got tonkaed]

I think its probably fair to say that under such a large umbrella that is the Christian faith, you are going to get a bit of everything (in reference to daddy1 and neoteny and the suffering issue). Ive seen people on both sides of the coin. I do not think simply being a more faithful person will make you more humanitarian, because there are a lot of different ways that faith might manifest.

I knew a few guys who as they were getting serious about their faith, really dove into the text and spent a lot of energy there, to the point they were losing a bit of touch with the rest of world out there. I would say they were being more faithful than before, but they were directed away from things i suppose.

At the same time i knew someone who had so much trouble sleeping at night knowing winter was coming and that many of the homeless would be struggling in that time of year the most, that she started a bit of a ministry to reach out to those people. She ended up raising a pretty nice amount of food and clothes out to people and i think you could argue she was more in tune with her faith in that way as well, because she believed God was inspiring this in her.

I have to agree more with neoteny about the notion that many christians struggle in some ways to see the necessity of the stewardship promise that seems to be so important to so many others. In the papers i wrote on some of christian conservatism with social issues in the past few years, it wasnt hard to find soundbytes or arguments which didnt explicity state, but rather implicitly argued it didnt argue quite so much.

Now in that last case i didnt bother to claim well all christianity must be like that, that would seem to be rather shortsighted. If you are going to have humanitarian sentiments, your going to have them, faith or not. Faith may inspire some in people, but i have a feeling many of those would have those sentiments either way.

Because im just rolling in ancedotal evidence, i feel like after my losing of my christian faith i became immeasurably more concerned with humanitarian issues. Not necessarily because i wasnt before interested in those things, but because i felt an incredible sense that if this was the only world i would have to live in, i should probably get about to trying to do something right. I think this motivation more eloquently stated, is probably just as strong in nonbelievers as the complusion to love the way God inspires one to is in the christian faith.