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Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

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Postby Carebian Knight on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:07 pm

Chris7He wrote:Creationism is not Science because it does not raise questions or new hypotheses, cannot be tested in a controlled experiment, and do not generate any predictions.

When scientific research produces conclusions which contradict a creationist interpretation of scripture, the strict creationist approach is either to reject the conclusions of the research, its underlying scientific theories, or its methodology. For this reason, both creation science and intelligent design have been labeled as pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community.

There's your answer and if you ask a Science teacher 90% don't believe in Creationism. I personally believe in a more scientific Theistic Evolution where Science and Christianity don't need to be in conflict.


No shit, they're practically scientists themselves, you don't want to teach science then believe something that contradicts it. That's like wanting to teach math, but thinking 2+2=5
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Postby Carebian Knight on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:16 pm

So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

unriggable: So wait, we've actually created stars from gas? That's the only way to prove it to me.

Bavarian Raven: We've said it a bunch of times already, we can't prove creationism, the only thing we can do is disprove evolution. READ BEFORE YOU POST.

Chris7He wrote:reject the conclusions of the research


Sounds like what some of your evolutionist buddies were doing a while back.
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Postby jiminski on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:22 pm

Carebian Knight wrote:So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

.


yes
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Postby Bigfalcon65 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:23 pm

jiminski wrote:
Carebian Knight wrote:So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

.


yes


yes, ever wonder why some sicknesses beat thier vaccine??cause the evolve to beat it
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Postby Chris7He on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:30 pm

Bigfalcon65 wrote:
jiminski wrote:
Carebian Knight wrote:So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

.


yes


yes, ever wonder why some sicknesses beat thier vaccine??cause the evolve to beat it


Why would God create new disease that plague innocent people?
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Postby Bigfalcon65 on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:31 pm

Chris7He wrote:
Bigfalcon65 wrote:
jiminski wrote:
Carebian Knight wrote:So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

.


yes


yes, ever wonder why some sicknesses beat thier vaccine??cause the evolve to beat it


Why would God create new disease that plague innocent people?


so with that who honestly beleives that god created us all?
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Postby Chris7He on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:33 pm

Carebian Knight wrote:So far I've seen a lot of talk about Widow's post being wrong, but no pointing it out or giving support to your claims. I saw nothing wrong with the post myself.

Question: Without using what you've been taught, can you prove evolution?

unriggable: So wait, we've actually created stars from gas? That's the only way to prove it to me.

Bavarian Raven: We've said it a bunch of times already, we can't prove creationism, the only thing we can do is disprove evolution. READ BEFORE YOU POST.

Chris7He wrote:reject the conclusions of the research


Sounds like what some of your evolutionist buddies were doing a while back.


Name something besides the Piltdown man because Charles Dawson was not a true scientist. Creationism has never made any helpful scientific advances.
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Postby Bavarian Raven on Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:49 pm

sorry if i don't have an hour to read through 48 pages of stuff...
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Postby Carebian Knight on Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:15 pm

Some of you are asking basically the same questions over and over again.

Sorry Raven your right.

Chris, CREATIONISM IS NOT SCIENCE last time I'm saying it. You can't say that creationism isn't true because it can't be proven scientifically, of course it can't, they contradict each other.
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Postby Bavarian Raven on Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:44 pm

Chris, CREATIONISM IS NOT SCIENCE last time I'm saying it. You can't say that creationism isn't true because it can't be proven scientifically, of course it can't, they contradict each other.



8) creationism and science are like oil and water. they will not, can not mix. whether one is right or not, that's up to YOU to decide. But as it has been said many times before (i scanned through most of the pages) creationism is lacking proof and is all blind belief. Science has proof that needs belief. Simple as that. :D
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:55 am

Carebian Knight wrote:Some of you are asking basically the same questions over and over again.

Sorry Raven your right.

Chris, CREATIONISM IS NOT SCIENCE last time I'm saying it. You can't say that creationism isn't true because it can't be proven scientifically, of course it can't, they contradict each other.


Creationism is almost certainly not true because there is not a single shred of firm evidence to support it. Evolution on the other hand has a great deal of evidence in its favour and, though not entirely proven, on the basis of probability is the answer to the puzzle. Everybody makes daily decisions on the basis of probability and logic ( nothing is 100 % guaranteed ) so to dismiss evolution simply because of current gaps in the jigsaw is frankly just nit picking.
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:17 am

joecoolfrog wrote:Everybody makes daily decisions on the basis of probability and logic ( nothing is 100 % guaranteed ) so to dismiss evolution simply because of current gaps in the jigsaw is frankly just nit picking.


It's the pitfall of those who take Genesis literally (as most in the Creationism/ID camp tend to do). With that sort of mindset, if there's one piece missing then you have to discard the whole thing.

Is it possible that we were all created, as we are, by some great and powerful being? Sure. It's also possible that all life on earth was started by space aliens [Raelian belief] or that all life on earth is infected with viral alien souls [Scientological belief].

It's most likely though that life as we know it today is the latest development in an ongoing process of evolution as we shed traits through natural selection and breeding and slowly change into new creatures.


Did God start evolution? Maybe. Then again, maybe all He did was set up the initial conditions and let it run.
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Postby jiminski on Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:54 am

Widow has put in a admiral amount of work on this and his arguments, if not compelling, should be respected due to him giving it a real go in the absence of much to work with!

but come on this is very much like still arguing that the world is flat.
I mean really; have you been to outer-space and witnessed the shimmering blue orb first had? I haven't! hey perhaps outer-space as a concept is all fabricated too.

Perhaps the fact that a sea-ships mast disappears over the horizon is not to do with the curvature of the Earth but the curving of the 'visibility-plane' under the holy-spritational force.

Really anything can be argued; argued with a little more sincerity and leg-work, i could put in a good case for the Earth being flat... but it's not... is it?
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:40 am

jiminski wrote:Widow has put in a admiral amount of work on this and his arguments, if not compelling, should be respected due to him giving it a real go in the absence of much to work with!

but come on this is very much like still arguing that the world is flat.
I mean really; have you been to outer-space and witnessed the shimmering blue orb first had? I haven't! hey perhaps outer-space as a concept is all fabricated too.

Perhaps the fact that a sea-ships mast disappears over the horizon is not to do with the curvature of the Earth but the curving of the 'visibility-plane' under the holy-spritational force.

Really anything can be argued; argued with a little more sincerity and leg-work, i could put in a good case for the Earth being flat... but it's not... is it?

It's all been in the news a few months ago. The world is actually flat, it was all just a government conspiracy to uhm... get money from us by.. uhm.. well I forgot but it seemed like a very good reason.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:37 pm

(1) Atmospheric carbon: The air around us has for the past several million years, had the same amount of atmospheric carbon that it now has.
(2) Oceanic carbon: During that time, the very large amount of oceanic carbon has remained constant.
(3) Cosmic rays: Cosmic rays from outer space have reached the earth in the same amounts in the past as now.
(4) Balance of rates: Both the rate of formation and rate of decay of carbon 14 have always in the past remained in balance.
(5) Decay rates: The decay rate of carbon 14 has never changed.
(6) No contamination: Nothing has ever contaminated any specimen containing carbon 14.
(7) No seepage: No seepage of water or other factor has brought additional carbon 14 to the sample since death occurred.
(8) Amount of carbon 14 at death: The fraction of carbon 14, which the living thing possessed at death, is today known.
(9) Carbon 14 half-life: The half-life of carbon 14 has been accurately determined.
(10) Atmospheric nitrogen: Nitrogen is the precursor to C=14, so the amount of nitrogen in the atmosphere must have always been constant.
(11) Instrumentation and analysis: The instrumentation is precise, working properly, and analytic methods are always carefully done.
(12) Uniform results: The technique always yields the same results on the same sample, or related samples that are obviously part of the same larger sample.
(13) Earth's magnetic field: Earth's magnetic field was the same in the past as it is today.


What you quite conveniently forget to point out is that we do not solely depend on Carbon 14 half-life to determine age. Lots of these flaws you point out are silly because we used other things to look if it was correct.
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Postby heavycola on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:40 pm

I love the 'carbon dating proves evolution wrong' arguments. Good times.
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Postby Chris7He on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:43 pm

Nothing in the real world can be proved with absolute certainty. However, high degrees of certainty can be reached. In the case of evolution, we have huge amounts of data from diverse fields. Extensive evidence exists in all of the following different forms (Theobald 2004). Each new piece of evidence tests the rest.
All life shows a fundamental unity in the mechanisms of replication, heritability, catalysis, and metabolism.
Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy pattern, or groups within groups. We see just such an arrangement in a unique, consistent, well-defined hierarchy, the so-called tree of life.
Different lines of evidence give the same arrangement of the tree of life. We get essentially the same results whether we look at morphological, biochemical, or genetic traits.
Fossil animals fit in the same tree of life. We find several cases of transitional forms in the fossil record.
The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.
Many organisms show rudimentary, vestigial characters, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.
Atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism's immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms' evolutionary histories.
Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) gives information about the historical pathway of an organism's evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth.
The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history. For example, marsupials are mostly limited to Australia, and the exceptions are explained by continental drift. Remote islands often have species groups that are highly diverse in habits and general appearance but closely related genetically. Squirrel diversity coincides with tectonic and sea level changes (Mercer and Roth 2003). Such consistency still holds when the distribution of fossil species is included.
Evolution predicts that new structures are adapted from other structures that already exist, and thus similarity in structures should reflect evolutionary history rather than function. We see this frequently. For example, human hands, bat wings, horse legs, whale flippers, and mole forelimbs all have similar bone structure despite their different functions.
The same principle applies on a molecular level. Humans share a large percentage of their genes, probably more than 70 percent, with a fruit fly or a nematode worm.
When two organisms evolve the same function independently, different structures are often recruited. For example, wings of birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects all have different structures. Gliding has been implemented in many additional ways. Again, this applies on a molecular level, too.
The constraints of evolutionary history sometimes lead to suboptimal structures and functions. For example, the human throat and respiratory system make it impossible to breathe and swallow at the same time and make us susceptible to choking.
Suboptimality appears also on the molecular level. For example, much DNA is nonfunctional.
Some nonfunctional DNA, such as certain transposons, pseudogenes, and endogenous viruses, show a pattern of inheritance indicating common ancestry.
Speciation has been observed.
The day-to-day aspects of evolution -- heritable genetic change, morphological variation and change, functional change, and natural selection -- are seen to occur at rates consistent with common descent.

Furthermore, the different lines of evidence are consistent; they all point to the same big picture. For example, evidence from gene duplications in the yeast genome shows that its ability to ferment glucose evolved about eighty million years ago. Fossil evidence shows that fermentable fruits became prominent about the same time. Genetic evidence for major change around that time also is found in fruiting plants and fruit flies (Benner et al. 2002).

The evidence is extensive and consistent, and it points unambiguously to evolution, including common descent, change over time, and adaptation influenced by natural selection. It would be preposterous to refer to these as anything other than facts.

Evolution can be proven. Not directly, but indirectly. :wink:
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Postby Chris7He on Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:52 pm

Carebian Knight wrote:Some of you are asking basically the same questions over and over again.

Sorry Raven your right.

Chris, CREATIONISM IS NOT SCIENCE last time I'm saying it. You can't say that creationism isn't true because it can't be proven scientifically, of course it can't, they contradict each other.


Of course it's not. That's why it can't be proven and if it can't be proven, there is a very good chance that creationism is not true. That's why it isn't taught in public schools and state universities. That's why there is a separation of church and state. It took the nation over 200 years to achieve this and more creationists have been trying to replace evolution with 'intelligent design proponents'.

What does not believing in God give you? It gives you reason and not being surrounded by a black shroud of ignorance. I'm not saying not to believe in God (I believe in theistic evolution or God created the Universe through the big bang and then the Universe grew up on its own). Creationism has not contributed to society in any way. Take a look at the religious wars and the middle ages.
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Postby Carebian Knight on Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:48 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:
jiminski wrote:Widow has put in a admiral amount of work on this and his arguments, if not compelling, should be respected due to him giving it a real go in the absence of much to work with!

but come on this is very much like still arguing that the world is flat.
I mean really; have you been to outer-space and witnessed the shimmering blue orb first had? I haven't! hey perhaps outer-space as a concept is all fabricated too.

Perhaps the fact that a sea-ships mast disappears over the horizon is not to do with the curvature of the Earth but the curving of the 'visibility-plane' under the holy-spritational force.

Really anything can be argued; argued with a little more sincerity and leg-work, i could put in a good case for the Earth being flat... but it's not... is it?

It's all been in the news a few months ago. The world is actually flat, it was all just a government conspiracy to uhm... get money from us by.. uhm.. well I forgot but it seemed like a very good reason.


Are you sure it was on the news? Or did you just here it from xtratabasco?


What I meant when I said that creationism isn't science, is that if it's not science then it can't be proven through science. There is no evidence for creationism because providing the evidence that everyone wants, would be going against the beliefs of creationists. So like I've said hundreds of times before, you can't prove creationism, you can only make your case and try to convert people to your side. That is what Widow was doing, trying to prove key elements of evolution wrong so that creationism looked more like the correct answer.

Mr. Dunn(My freshmen science teacher, who probably heard this somewhere else) wrote:Believe nothing that you are told, half of what you read and everything that you see.
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Postby MeDeFe on Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:55 am

Yep, believe all you see.

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Postby firth4eva on Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:03 am

MeDeFe wrote:Yep, believe all you see.

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Holy shit how did he do that?
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Postby MeDeFe on Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:42 pm

He didn't, which is the point, it's just a trick.
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Postby Carebian Knight on Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:55 pm

MeDeFe wrote:He didn't, which is the point, it's just a trick.


Exactly, so your not seeing it, your brain is tricked to make you think you are seeing it.
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Postby heavycola on Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:41 pm

Carebian Knight wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:He didn't, which is the point, it's just a trick.


Exactly, so your not seeing it, your brain is tricked to make you think you are seeing it.


Do i take it you just lost your faith?
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Postby Carebian Knight on Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:48 pm

heavycola wrote:
Carebian Knight wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:He didn't, which is the point, it's just a trick.


Exactly, so your not seeing it, your brain is tricked to make you think you are seeing it.


Do i take it you just lost your faith?


:oops: Ummm :oops:

No, I only refer to this with the scientific sense, I still believe fully in God, I may not have seen him, but I've seen and read things of him that I fully believe.
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