Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[viperbitex]

We were talking about the probability of God existing, not which religion has the best claim. I was simply pointing out that it's more probable that God exists in some form if all these cultures around the word have some piece of him in their culture.

If you'd like to discuss the reasons that Christianity is true, we can do that, but I need specific things to refute, not broad sweeping allegations.

I'm not debating on if there is a higher power or powers. This thread is about Christian beliefs specifically, not God in general. The thread was started to ask and debate some of the stories in the Bible and OT.

In my opinion, someone or a thousand people, can worship a vacuum bag filled with spaghetti and plastic cheese wrappers for all I care, and more power to them! If believing and praying in a chosen God makes you feel content then rock on! Pray your heart out. My beef with Christianity...and Catholicism in general, is that there is a big message "IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE YOU ARE A SCUM BAG" which is bullsh**. I have a problem with any religion that teaches people to hate others.

The Bible and the Old Testament are books of stories. Most of the Bible was written 500 years after the death of Christ. Saint Paul was a self loathing homosexual who preached about how to beat your wife and children and condemned homosexuality because he hated himself...Jesus never said that. But it's written in the Holy books so it must be true, so lets lobby and try to kill or hurt the gays in any way that we can, and then go home and beat our families because some guy who didn't know our savior said it was ok.

Ok, went off on a tangent there, my bad. What I'm trying to say is that science has discredited the basics of your religion. I'm not saying that there isn't a God (or Gods) hanging out fu**ing with us, I'm saying why do you people still put so much stock in a religion that is riddled with holes and rotten with hypocrisies?

[Backglass]

In my opinion, someone or a thousand people, can worship a vacuum bag filled with spaghetti and plastic cheese wrappers for all I care, and more power to them! If believing and praying in a chosen God makes you feel content then rock on! Pray your heart out. My beef with Christianity...and Catholicism in general, is that there is a big message "IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE YOU ARE A SCUM BAG" which is bullsh**. I have a problem with any religion that teaches people to hate others.

Exactly. Do what you like in your home or church. Just don't push it on me in public places or my kids in public schools.

The Bible and the Old Testament are books of stories. Most of the Bible was written 500 years after the death of Christ. Saint Paul was a self loathing homosexual who preached about how to beat your wife and children and condemned homosexuality because he hated himself...Jesus never said that. But it's written in the Holy books so it must be true, so lets lobby and try to kill or hurt the gays in any way that we can, and then go home and beat our families because some guy who didn't know our savior said it was ok.

Ok, went off on a tangent there, my bad. What I'm trying to say is that science has discredited the basics of your religion. I'm not saying that there isn't a God (or Gods) hanging out fu**ing with us, I'm saying why do you people still put so much stock in a religion that is riddled with holes and rotten with hypocrisies?

Well said. Stick around, would ya?

[Napoleon Ier]

Maybe viberbitex would like to find me a document published by the Magesterium, the Holy See, or maybe a reference from the Catechism supporting his assertion Catholicism preaches that "IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE YOU ARE A SCUM BAG"

[MR. Nate]

Because he exist in the human mind does not make it so. Many cultures do not have god(s).

Name one.

Well, there is another possibility as to why the majority of mankind conceives of some concept of a god:
Mysterious phenomenon of a strange and awe-inspiring nature (to a limited species with even more limited knowledge of the world around them) would have to have been pulled off by a being of immense power and mystery. Ipso facto: God.

So you're saying now that we understand everything, we know that there can't be a God? Or perhaps because we're better educated, we feel like we don't want anyone else making the rules?

My beef with Christianity...and Catholicism in general, is that there is a big message "IF YOU DON"T BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE YOU ARE A SCUM BAG" which is bullsh**. I have a problem with any religion that teaches people to hate others.

Well, I'm not Catholic, but I will say that Christ pretty specifically said that we're supposed to love our enemies, and do good to those who hurt us. I'm not sure what Bible you're reading from, but it seems to have deviated from the standard version more than just a bit.

The Bible and the Old Testament are books of stories. Most of the Bible was written 500 years after the death of Christ.

Uh, they have pretty complete transcripts from as early as 300 AD, and bits and pieces from as early as 130. Check out the manuscripts at Duke University. There is pretty solid evidence that the NT as we know it was complete, compiled and heavily relied on between 120 and 180.

Saint Paul was a self loathing homosexual who preached about how to beat your wife and children and condemned homosexuality because he hated himself...Jesus never said that.

I'm going to guess you haven't read much of what Paul wrote, but probably more than a little propaganda ABOUT what Paul wrote. Paul says "Husbands, Love your wives the way that Christ loved the church" as in "Guys, be prepared to die for your wife" He also said "Fathers, don't aggravate your children" I'm pretty sure that physical abuse would be included in aggravation.

As for Paul being a self-loathing homosexual, I've not heard that particular accusation before (usually the accusation is misogynist) I don't think that it has much textual backing though. Most of the text that speaks against homosexuality comes in sin lists. Such as "You all used to be sinners . . . Liars, cheaters, thieves, prostitutes, homosexuals, adulterers, drunks murderers, but God rescued you from that life" Only the OT has specific commands against homosexuality, and attached punishment.

Why do you people still put so much stock in a religion that is riddled with holes and rotten with hypocrisies?

I really don't think it's riddled with holes. I see some hypocrisy, but I'm not accountable for them. I'm accountable for me. One day I'll stand before God and give an account for my life. They'll do the same. In the mean time, I'm willing to try to answer any specific questions you've got.

[PinkyAndTheBrain]

Would you try to answer mine? They're here, bottom of the page.

[vtmarik]

So you're saying now that we understand everything, we know that there can't be a God? Or perhaps because we're better educated, we feel like we don't want anyone else making the rules?

That's not what I said. I said that we know a lot more than people that lived 2000 years ago. Hell, we know a lot more than people who lived 200 years ago. We don't need to invoke the name or entity of a god to explain many of the things that were previously attributed to gods.

Comets are no longer bad omens. Eclipses are no longer a god sending a message. Lightning is not something thrown by Zeus. Thunder is not Thor killing giants with a hammer. Earthquakes are not Poseidon getting antsy.

We know now that events like plagues (pandemics) are not some kind of mass punishment. They are caused by bacteria, viruses, improper handling of patients, improper handling of infectious substances, etc. They are caused by biological agents that can be seen, measured, and verified.

We also now know that lightning is caused when negatively charged particles in the air hit positively charged particles in the ground, causing a massive transfer of energy. God doesn't make lightning happen, static electricity does.




We don't know everything though (and if you look at my statement, you'll find that I never claimed that we did). We still don't fully know how the brain works, how consciousness works, or what triggered the creation of consciousness or if it is present in all living things.

Can we use science to completely explain God away? No.

Can we use science to correctly find the cause for some events on measurable phenomena instead of blaming God? Yes.
-------------------
Conclusion
-------------------

The reason that pretty much all ancient religion and mythology worships one or more gods is because people thoughts that's what was behind everything. Anthropomorphism is a weakness of mankind; everything has to have a massive, driving purpose behind it because if it doesn't than it could never actually happen.

Modern day Christian struggle with the same thing. They can accept most of scientific theory because we can zoom out and say "Here's the proof."

They cannot, however, understand how complex life (as we see it now) came about by a chaotic system because all they see in life is supreme order. The conclusion they draw is then "Well, the order had to come from somewhere."

What order? Consciousness, the thing that makes you you, has no order to it. It's the product of a billion neurons all chaotically firing semi-random intervals. The very process of life has no order. It's chaos.

If there was true order in life, then everyone would know when they would die and the knowledge would change with every new choice. The weathermen would be 100% accurate, all the time. Birth defects wouldn't exist. Genetic abnormalities wouldn't exist. There would still be dodo birds everywhere, and there wouldn't be a hole in the fucking Ozone layer.

Scientists can't zoom out and show you "Here's the proof, here's where it all started" yet, but just because we as a race aren't there yet doesn't invalidate what we've found so far. You can't keep clamping your hands over your ears and wear blindfolds forever.

Sooner or later you're going to have to come to terms with the possibility, however remote it may be, that God may not be there in a direct sense.

Maybe God is the connectedness we feel to other human beings. Maybe He's the empathy we feel towards the needy and the suffering. Maybe he's a great being that we cannot ever hope to come face to face with. Who knows? Not me, not you, and certainly not people 1500 years ago with everything to gain and nothing to lose by composing a book of how people should live and obey.

[MR. Nate]

Pinky, It's a valid question, I can't answer specifics, but let me answer broadly. Your question essentially asks: If God is all-powerful, and God is loving, why does evil occur in the world? Can he not prevent it and so fail to be all powerful? Or does he choose not too and fail to be loving?

My answer is this (and I've got a guess as to which questions immediately follow from MeDeFe and/or vtmarik) God is both infinitely powerful and infinitely loving. A part of that love for mankind drives him to allow us to choose for ourselves what our actions will be rather than compelling us to be good. Most of the atrocities we see are inflicted by other men exercising their God-given free will. It's the effect of sin in the world.

The next question is "What about natural disasters?" And the answer is similar. They are the fault of sin in the world. Not directly, but still, they are the consequences of sin. Man was given domain over the earth. He was responsible for it. When he sinned, it caused fundamental changes not only in human relationships with God, but in human nature and the natural world. We live in a progressively more fallen world as a result of our race-wide sin, and we reap the consequences of that sin in the form of natural disasters.

Consciousness, the thing that makes you you, has no order to it. It's the product of a billion neurons all chaotically firing semi-random intervals. The very process of life has no order. It's chaos.

If there was true order in life, then everyone would know when they would die and the knowledge would change with every new choice. The weathermen would be 100% accurate, all the time. Birth defects wouldn't exist. Genetic abnormalities wouldn't exist. There would still be dodo birds everywhere, and there wouldn't be a hole in the fucking Ozone layer.

I think your discussion on order fails to account for the vast number of variables. Your definition of order is basically order that makes sense to you, yet there is order, it's called natural laws, and they always exist, and no one knows why or how.

If life is truly chaos, why does it so consistently exist? How did conscious life forms ever begin? What is conciousness? If science is so wonderful, why can't it answer even the most basic metaphysical questions? The second you ask "What is beauty, what is art, what is love, what is anger" You are discussing shared human experience for which science can offer only insight to the process, not the how or the why. You can say "we know that beauty is these neurons firing at such an interval" but why do those neurons ALWAYS fire when faced with the Mona Lisa, but they NEVER fire when faced with miry clay?

Maybe God is the connectedness we feel to other human beings. Maybe He's the empathy we feel towards the needy and the suffering. Maybe he's a great being that we cannot ever hope to come face to face with. Who knows? Not me, not you, and certainly not people 1500 years ago with everything to gain and nothing to lose by composing a book of how people should live and obey.

Unless said people were confronted face to face with said being, in which case they probably WOULD know.

[Snorri1234]

Pinky, It's a valid question, I can't answer specifics, but let me answer broadly. Your question essentially asks: If God is all-powerful, and God is loving, why does evil occur in the world? Can he not prevent it and so fail to be all powerful? Or does he choose not too and fail to be loving?

My answer is this (and I've got a guess as to which questions immediately follow from MeDeFe and/or vtmarik) God is both infinitely powerful and infinitely loving. A part of that love for mankind drives him to allow us to choose for ourselves what our actions will be rather than compelling us to be good. Most of the atrocities we see are inflicted by other men exercising their God-given free will. It's the effect of sin in the world.

Ah so what about the atrocities that aren't inflicted by other men? Matter of fact: "What about the atrocities inflicted by other people?" Isn't it quite a contradiction of all-loving when God decides to let a little girl die because he doesn't want to stop a maniac from excersising his free will?
Are you perhaps a fan of ultimate freedom and no laws whatsoever in this world because those laws inhibit our excersising of free will?

The next question is "What about natural disasters?" And the answer is similar. They are the fault of sin in the world. Not directly, but still, they are the consequences of sin. Man was given domain over the earth. He was responsible for it. When he sinned, it caused fundamental changes not only in human relationships with God, but in human nature and the natural world. We live in a progressively more fallen world as a result of our race-wide sin, and we reap the consequences of that sin in the form of natural disasters.

Ah I see. So because some guy decided not to listen to his creator who was omnipresent and all-knowing but still didn't take into account basic human behaviour, I have to suffer? Plagues are a punishment for stuff we actually haven't comitted?
Because then God isn't all-loving.

[suggs]

any talk of "higher power" is just aa nonsense, utter gibberish.
next.

[MeDeFe]

The next question is "What about natural disasters?" And the answer is similar. They are the fault of sin in the world. Not directly, but still, they are the consequences of sin. Man was given domain over the earth. He was responsible for it. When he sinned, it caused fundamental changes not only in human relationships with God, but in human nature and the natural world. We live in a progressively more fallen world as a result of our race-wide sin, and we reap the consequences of that sin in the form of natural disasters.

So if we all started loving god and obeying his commands and believing that we are reallyreally bad people who don't deserve to even lick his boots:
- plate tectonics would change so there would be no more earthquakes and tsunamis and volcano eruptions and whatnot
- no more hurricanes and storms leaving people dead and homes destroyed
- no more wildfires burning thousands of acres of land
- global warming would stop and we wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the possible consequences of it or leaving these consequences for our descendants to deal with

Sorry, but that sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Taking the bible literally for a moment but speaking flippantly: because way back the first two humans opened the cookie jar after finding out that it wouldn't bite off their hands as they'd been told and ate the magical intelligence enhancing biscuit we now have the above-mentioned phenomena that can cause significant damage to human society.
Try as I might, I can't see the connection.

If life is truly chaos, why does it so consistently exist? How did conscious life forms ever begin? What is conciousness? If science is so wonderful, why can't it answer even the most basic metaphysical questions? The second you ask "What is beauty, what is art, what is love, what is anger" You are discussing shared human experience for which science can offer only insight to the process, not the how or the why. You can say "we know that beauty is these neurons firing at such an interval" but why do those neurons ALWAYS fire when faced with the Mona Lisa, but they NEVER fire when faced with miry clay?

Because these question are just that: basic, metaphysical questions.
Basic in the sense that they ask for the very beginnings of processes we are only beginning to understand the general workings of, I think you are asking for a bit much, come back in 50 years and see what has been found out. Take gravity for example, seemingly straightforward, "things fall down towards earth" becomes "things attract each other", add subatomic physics because otherwise all atomic nuclei would fly apart by the math so far except that they don't appear to do so, then find out that things don't quite work for large objects like galaxies either and you'll have to come up with completely new calculations.
The consciousness of a human is still a lot harder to observe. Give it some time.
As for beauty, art, love and anger. The first two are definitely constructs that depend on many factors influencing a society and even between two individuals from the same society and timeperiod it is almost guaranteed that you will find differences. Love, while certainly a mental and physical state, even a measurable state, is also partly a construct. I will be so bold as to claim that literature has played a quite significant role in its formation and for our interpretation of this emotion.

Maybe God is the connectedness we feel to other human beings. Maybe He's the empathy we feel towards the needy and the suffering. Maybe he's a great being that we cannot ever hope to come face to face with. Who knows? Not me, not you, and certainly not people 1500 years ago with everything to gain and nothing to lose by composing a book of how people should live and obey.

Unless said people were confronted face to face with said being, in which case they probably WOULD know.

Or have been stoned out of their mind, or lying for personal gain, or maybe they are purely fictional. Whatever the case it's certainly not a very efficient way for an omnipotent being that wants to save us all from not spending eternity after death together with him to show himself to only one person at a time, instead of, say, the whole world. Just a short call would be enough, sort of "hey guys, I'm really here, look carry on however you want, but I wanted to make sure you know I exist, no need to fall down and start praying, just please try and be decent to each other, ok gtg, I'll see you later". Zing, free will stays, everyone knows for sure and instead of discussing religion on the internet we can start debating how to get rid of Americas debt and whether anarchy is a viable political system or something like that.

[Backglass]

I said that we know a lot more than people that lived 2000 years ago. Hell, we know a lot more than people who lived 200 years ago. We don't need to invoke the name or entity of a god to explain many of the things that were previously attributed to gods.

Comets are no longer bad omens. Eclipses are no longer a god sending a message. Lightning is not something thrown by Zeus. Thunder is not Thor killing giants with a hammer. Earthquakes are not Poseidon getting antsy.

We know now that events like plagues (pandemics) are not some kind of mass punishment. They are caused by bacteria, viruses, improper handling of patients, improper handling of infectious substances, etc. They are caused by biological agents that can be seen, measured, and verified.

We also now know that lightning is caused when negatively charged particles in the air hit positively charged particles in the ground, causing a massive transfer of energy. God doesn't make lightning happen, static electricity does.




We don't know everything though (and if you look at my statement, you'll find that I never claimed that we did). We still don't fully know how the brain works, how consciousness works, or what triggered the creation of consciousness or if it is present in all living things.

Can we use science to completely explain God away? No.

Can we use science to correctly find the cause for some events on measurable phenomena instead of blaming God? Yes.
-------------------
Conclusion
-------------------

The reason that pretty much all ancient religion and mythology worships one or more gods is because people thoughts that's what was behind everything. Anthropomorphism is a weakness of mankind; everything has to have a massive, driving purpose behind it because if it doesn't than it could never actually happen.

Modern day Christian struggle with the same thing. They can accept most of scientific theory because we can zoom out and say "Here's the proof."

They cannot, however, understand how complex life (as we see it now) came about by a chaotic system because all they see in life is supreme order. The conclusion they draw is then "Well, the order had to come from somewhere."

What order? Consciousness, the thing that makes you you, has no order to it. It's the product of a billion neurons all chaotically firing semi-random intervals. The very process of life has no order. It's chaos.

If there was true order in life, then everyone would know when they would die and the knowledge would change with every new choice. The weathermen would be 100% accurate, all the time. Birth defects wouldn't exist. Genetic abnormalities wouldn't exist. There would still be dodo birds everywhere, and there wouldn't be a hole in the fucking Ozone layer.

Scientists can't zoom out and show you "Here's the proof, here's where it all started" yet, but just because we as a race aren't there yet doesn't invalidate what we've found so far. You can't keep clamping your hands over your ears and wear blindfolds forever.

Sooner or later you're going to have to come to terms with the possibility, however remote it may be, that God may not be there in a direct sense.

Maybe God is the connectedness we feel to other human beings. Maybe He's the empathy we feel towards the needy and the suffering. Maybe he's a great being that we cannot ever hope to come face to face with. Who knows? Not me, not you, and certainly not people 1500 years ago with everything to gain and nothing to lose by composing a book of how people should live and obey.

Wow...perfectly put. I agree with your conclusions except for the dark blue part above. That would be man putting his own face on the unexplainable again.

[vtmarik]

Wow...perfectly put. I agree with your conclusions except for the dark blue part above. That would be man putting his own face on the unexplainable again.

You mean, that I messed up by assuming that God has a face to begin with? Well, since He is such a great and powerful being, I'm sure He'd deign to create a facial-style interface for any person (or persons) He chose to reveal Himself to.

Anything else would probably blow the brain of any chosen people out the back of their skulls.

I was acknowledging it as a possibility, not trying to define the indefinable. Maybe He is a being in the traditional sense. I mean, the universe is massive and impossibly old. Even something that has only a 1-in-1-billion chance of happening would have happened at least four times given the age of Earth (Not withstanding that the Universe is most likely older than Earth).

[MR. Nate]

Sorry it took so long to reply.

So if we all started loving god and obeying his commands and believing that we are reallyreally bad people who don't deserve to even lick his boots:
- plate tectonics would change so there would be no more earthquakes and tsunamis and volcano eruptions and whatnot
- no more hurricanes and storms leaving people dead and homes destroyed
- no more wildfires burning thousands of acres of land
- global warming would stop and we wouldn't have to worry about dealing with the possible consequences of it or leaving these consequences for our descendants to deal with

Sorry, but that sounds a bit far-fetched to me. Taking the bible literally for a moment but speaking flippantly: because way back the first two humans opened the cookie jar after finding out that it wouldn't bite off their hands as they'd been told and ate the magical intelligence enhancing biscuit we now have the above-mentioned phenomena that can cause significant damage to human society.
Try as I might, I can't see the connection.

Our belief does not remove original sin. Sin has entered the system, and so the system is now fundamentally flawed until it is re-created.
You're denying that sin has consequences? I don't see how you can do that. Rather than thinking about it from your narrow definition of what can or can't be, why don't you consider the fact that even now, the universe has built in consequences for sin, often broader and more complex than we realize. Let's say you break a commandment, pick one, say - adultery. You sleep with some random woman. Your wife finds out, predictably, she divorces you. Oh, and by the way, you now have hepatitis, so does your wife, but it lays dormant in her for 15 years, long enough to infect your kid. Didn't see it coming, but still the consequence of your sin.

Because these question are just that: basic, metaphysical questions.
Basic in the sense that they ask for the very beginnings of processes we are only beginning to understand the general workings of, I think you are asking for a bit much, come back in 50 years and see what has been found out. Take gravity for example, seemingly straightforward, "things fall down towards earth" becomes "things attract each other", add subatomic physics because otherwise all atomic nuclei would fly apart by the math so far except that they don't appear to do so, then find out that things don't quite work for large objects like galaxies either and you'll have to come up with completely new calculations.
The consciousness of a human is still a lot harder to observe. Give it some time.
As for beauty, art, love and anger. The first two are definitely constructs that depend on many factors influencing a society and even between two individuals from the same society and timeperiod it is almost guaranteed that you will find differences. Love, while certainly a mental and physical state, even a measurable state, is also partly a construct. I will be so bold as to claim that literature has played a quite significant role in its formation and for our interpretation of this emotion.

You say their constructs, but they are common across societies and cultures in that that all cultures have them. If they are truly constructs, why have they persisted for so long? Why do they seem to be irrepressible?

Or have been stoned out of their mind, or lying for personal gain, or maybe they are purely fictional. Whatever the case it's certainly not a very efficient way for an omnipotent being that wants to save us all from not spending eternity after death together with him to show himself to only one person at a time, instead of, say, the whole world. Just a short call would be enough, sort of "hey guys, I'm really here, look carry on however you want, but I wanted to make sure you know I exist, no need to fall down and start praying, just please try and be decent to each other, ok gtg, I'll see you later". Zing, free will stays, everyone knows for sure and instead of discussing religion on the internet we can start debating how to get rid of Americas debt and whether anarchy is a viable political system or something like that.

How concerned is God with efficiency? Not very. If the universe was primarily created for human beings (I know you reject this as arrogant, but roll with me for a moment) than God created the sun for the sole purpose of lighting and heating the earth. How efficiant is that? In addition, uh, HE DID. He zipped down here, lived for 33 or so years, and told everyone "Hey, I'm God" and what did they do? They killed him, and now he's alternately considered a nice guy or crazy.

[comic boy]

Mr Nate
I normaly find your posts informative but I despair at the notion that natural disasters are Gods punishment for the combined sins of the world. I tell you this, if the worlds organised religions gave a fraction of their huge wealth to geological research then it would save an awful lot more lives than any amount of prayer and piety.

[MR. Nate]

You're misinterpreting what I said.

I'm not talking about punishment for sin. That is unattainable. I'm talking about the natural consequences. If a little child runs out into the street, gets caught by their parents and sent to their room for an hour, that's punishment. If a little child runs out into the street and gets hit by a car, thats natural consequences.

Sin is far more infectious and destructive than we realize, and it's impact is more far-reaching than we can imagine.

As for the wealth of the worlds organized religion, I'm moderately sure that that is sin as well. I see no reason for a Christian organization to hoard or save money. Invest it in something worthwhile: Aids research, creating jobs in the 3rd world, paying for pre & neo natal care in economically repressed areas, SOMETHING, there's so many important things to choose from, although I have yet to be convinced that geological research is quite as pressing.

[comic boy]

You're misinterpreting what I said.

I'm not talking about punishment for sin. That is unattainable. I'm talking about the natural consequences. If a little child runs out into the street, gets caught by their parents and sent to their room for an hour, that's punishment. If a little child runs out into the street and gets hit by a car, thats natural consequences.

Sin is far more infectious and destructive than we realize, and it's impact is more far-reaching than we can imagine.

As for the wealth of the worlds organized religion, I'm moderately sure that that is sin as well. I see no reason for a Christian organization to hoard or save money. Invest it in something worthwhile: Aids research, creating jobs in the 3rd world, paying for pre & neo natal care in economically repressed areas, SOMETHING, there's so many important things to choose from, although I have yet to be convinced that geological research is quite as pressing.

LOL Yes I agree that geological research comes way down the general scale...but if we are talking about trying to prevent natural disasters

[CoffeeCream]

Thank you Nate for helping me understand the Christian position better. It's one of the toughest things I've struggled with. Evil exists and why does God allow it. I realize I have to decide now. It's not enough to just investigate and be curious.

Also thanks to other Jesus Freaks like CrazyAnglican, OnlyAmbrose, Beastly, Luns, Napoleon (and others I can't remember).

[moomaster2000]

Yea, I don't believe in god due to the fact that he made the healthy foods taste like shit.

[Beastly]

Coffee Cream, I am one of the worst example of a Christian there is...

I am not Religious.

I just believe that the old testament tells about the coming of Christ, and the new Testament is about Christ being here.

I have found the more simple I keep things, the more understanding I have. It really is pretty simple.

if you question anything in the bible, have someone find 2 more scriptures to witness to what you are understanding. That's why there are so many interpretations, people make up something from 1 scripture. It's says to have 2 witnesses. If you find it 3 times, you will know a truth. does that make sense? In other words. if you find someone telling you something, have them give you 3 scriptures to verify it. Especially if it is something that religions debate about. You will find who is right, by witness of other scriptures.

Aim for progress not perfection!

Also, Jesus gave us the lords prayer, to teach us how to pray, but it says not to do it in repetition. It is suppose to be used as a outline or a guideline to prayer. Jesus was asked how we are suppose to pray and he gave us a perfect example.



Here is a pamphlet, that I really like....

It is Called God for Dummies...


You've run your life your own way this whole time and it's a mess. You realize you've been a dummy and now you're ready to let God have a stab at it and see what He can do for you...

A. The Bible is a big book; Where do I start?

B. What will God be able to do for me?

C. Do I have to change?

It's no accident that you're reading this. Read on and find out why..

Whether you realize it, or believe it, or not, God created you. He tailor-made you for a certain reason, at a certain time, and in a certain lace. You've run around most of your life not knowing this, or maybe you knew it and were avoiding Him like the plague. But now, here you are. In a certain place for a certain reason, and you're really thinking a lot about God and where you go from here. God wrote the Bible so let's find out what it says about where you are and what to do next...

STEP ONE

2 Peter 3:9 He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

John 3:3 Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Rom 10; 8-10 For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and believe in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


What all this means (if you haven't figured it out) is that if you want to go anywhere with God you have to get "born again". So repeat this prayer..."Jesus, I want to know You. I want you to live in me and be my Lord. I ask you to forgive my sins and help me from now on. Thank you, In Jesus' name, Amen."

Okay, now that means that God just activated your spirit so he can communicate with you. Here's a good scripture...

2 Corinthians 5:17 When someone becomes a Christian, he becomes a brand new person inside. He is not the same anymore. A New life has begun!

Welcome to the Family of God!

Now on to the Next Step...

Step TWO

Rom 8:17 Since we are his children, we will share his treasures-for all God gives to his Son Jesus is now ours too.

Heb 8:6 The new agreement that Jesus passes on to us from God contains far more wonderful promises (than the old agreement).


These scriptures are trying to tell us that there is a contract: A will, if you will, and it contains all of the rights, privileges, and inheritance you hve now. It would be a good Idea for you to take the time to learn what they are by reading the Bible. After all it is the Instruction Manual to your new life.

Where do you start?
Go to Matthew and keep to the right. This is called the New Testament: the contract we talked about. You should spend some time in Psalms and Proverbs too. They're good for you.

God puts us all in a spiritual family (church), Just ask Him and He'll show you where to go. Then one of the best things you can do is join a small group, bible study, prayer group, or something where you'll get spiritual support and training. and you'll grow better. Don't forget Sundays!

1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation.

See that wasn't so hard now, was it? Stick with these two important steps and you'll see changes taking place in your life right away. Living life in the Kingdom isn't always a bed of roses, but it's waaaay better than the alternative. Soon you'll begin to see what exactly God created you to do and begin doing ti. and let me tell ya, there isn't anything as wonderful in this earth as doing what you were created to do.

Have Fun! and remember...Winners never quit and Quitters never win.

[MR. Nate]

if you question anything in the bible, have someone find 2 more scriptures to witness to what you are understanding. That's why there are so many interpretations, people make up something from 1 scripture. It's says to have 2 witnesses. If you find it 3 times, you will know a truth. does that make sense? In other words. if you find someone telling you something, have them give you 3 scriptures to verify it. Especially if it is something that religions debate about. You will find who is right, by witness of other scriptures.

so . . . God has to say something 2 or 3 times before you believe him?

[Snorri1234]

if you question anything in the bible, have someone find 2 more scriptures to witness to what you are understanding. That's why there are so many interpretations, people make up something from 1 scripture. It's says to have 2 witnesses. If you find it 3 times, you will know a truth. does that make sense? In other words. if you find someone telling you something, have them give you 3 scriptures to verify it. Especially if it is something that religions debate about. You will find who is right, by witness of other scriptures.

so . . . God has to say something 2 or 3 times before you believe him?

Well finding something 3 times in scripture would mean it's more probable that God thought it was important. And it helps against misinterpretation.

[Beastly]

Nate, I didn't say anything about believing God.... I said if you are a questioning a belief, or a scripture.

yes for example

Exodus 4:8


Isaiah 43:8-10

Matthew 26:60

Correct interpretation of the scriptures comes from having more than one scripture. Scriptures testify and add witness to each other. to add proof and evidence to the of what's being said.

Many religions take one part of a scripture and base there whole denomination on that one verse. Lets say, that all have to baptized to be saved for example. IF you are going to convince me of that statement, I want more than just 1 scripture to back it up.

because what you have learned and read, could mean something totally different than what I have learned and read.

John 1:6-8

John 1:7-9

This is a way you can test what the bible says. and what you are taught. Two people can read a scripture, and get a total different meaning from it.

Jesus quoted scripture all the time, why do you think he did that?

Witnessing is used to prove accuracy. Maybe that's why not only 1 person wrote the bible..

And if you think about the trinity, one witnesses to the other. that's why there is 3.

also you have witness in your own, by word, thought and deed...

2 Corinthians 13:1

1 Timothy 5:19

2 Timothy 2:2

Hebrews 10:28

1 John 5:8

1 John 5:9

Revelation 1:4-6

Revelation 11:3 do you know what these two Witnesses are! they are the same as the two witnesses that came with Jesus during the transfiquration ... Moses and Elijah, Moses representing the Law and Elijah represent the prophets, they both witness to one another and Jesus as the third.


The principle of "the testimony of two or three witnesses" is a principle by which a religion will stand or fall, and Christianity is the only religion that can stand. It is the only religion that gives an objective test for its own truth claims.

Matthew 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

According to the Old Testament legal law (Numbers 35:30, Duet. 17:6, 19:15) one must have another to bear witness so that a testimony is verified.

Revelation 12:17 here they are bearing witness again to jesus.

Hebrews 12:1


the following is
taken from Questions about God website...
Insincere questions, or questions from a hypocritical heart, are a different matter. “He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). After King Saul had disobeyed God, his questions went unanswered (1 Samuel 28:6). It is entirely different to wonder why God allowed a certain event than it is to directly question God's goodness. Having doubts is different from questioning God's sovereignty and attacking His character. In short, an honest question is not a sin, but a bitter, untrusting, or rebellious heart is. God is not intimidated by questions. God invites us to enjoy close fellowship with Him. When we "question God," it should be from a humble spirit and open mind. We can question God, but we should not expect an answer unless we are genuinely interested in His answer. God knows our hearts, and knows whether we are genuinely seeking Him to enlighten us. Our heart attitude is what determines whether it is right or wrong to question God.

[Backglass]

You are all wrong. It says so here in my very old book, written by very old people...and it is always right.

Please read these passages:

• Asshattery 8:2
• Beer II 11:15
• Sexos 2:9
• Arrogance & Flatulence 16:2

There....you see now?

[unriggable]

You are all wrong. It says so here in my very old book, written by very old people...and it is always right.

Please read these passages:

• Asshattery 8:2
• Beer II 11:15
• Sexos 2:9
• Arrogance & Flatulence 16:2

There....you see now?

I have that book. Talks about a giant and a beanstalk and it must be correct.

[Napoleon Ier]

You are all wrong. It says so here in my very old book, written by very old people...and it is always right.

Please read these passages:

• Asshattery 8:2
• Beer II 11:15
• Sexos 2:9
• Arrogance & Flatulence 16:2

There....you see now?

I have that book. Talks about a giant and a beanstalk and it must be correct.

hahahahahahahahah funny

What you don't get is that the Bible wasn't taken down from heaven with clouds and trumpets and angels, the material within it was chosen by the Council of Nicea based on what could be ontologically or empirically proved.