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[Abandoned] - Gang Crusades of TORONTO

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[Abandoned] - Gang Crusades of TORONTO

Postby luxCRUSADER on Fri May 08, 2009 1:56 pm

Hi CC members/ community:

Hello everyone:

5th Draft has been updated to 5.1 \:D/


Map:

Gang Crusades of TORONTO


Map Game Play Requirements:
1) Know how to Read (Game play mechanics shown beside map proper area). If illegible, this is my fault; if refusing to read, this is your fault...
2) Know how to play and use the "rock-paper-scissors" concept.
3) Know how to follow dotted line connections.

***Failure to know any part of these 3 requirements will result in the viewer unable to play this map... or MAJORITY OF game players for that matter****...


Purpose of Map:
1) Highlight the success that Canada's Largest City has had on its Gang Warfare ! (Map of Toronto/6 LARGE SCALED Gang Projects in JUST 5 YEAR SPAN !!!! Google search this urself to learn more ! ) \:D/
2) Empower the Conquer Club player to play as Gangstar or Cop. (rock-paper-scissors) \:D/
3) Simply have fun- And you will, cuz:

....i) FIRSTLY...this map uses, arguably one of the most popular historical combat themes of Good Boys against Bad Boys, while set in this map play for the first time ever, using the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" Cycle, which all Combat or strategy-based video games often do; I mean they feature RPS ("rock-paper-scissors")-like cycles in their characters' or units' effectiveness against others. These often attempt to emulate cycles in real-world combat. And I did this for the player to either choose to play as the "good guy" and win over his city of Toronto or "bad guy" and make it a criminal capital. Each style of play is up to the individual player.
....ii) SECONDLY....just like in the Peloponnesian Map where everyone starts with a sectio, I plan to do that here; whereby, everyone will start with a Division, within their Zone, before spreading out to the same colored Division of respective Zone to hopefully collect the full 10 bonus armies before your neighbor does. Then once in this position- AS YOU SIT BEHIND YOUR "3 CHOKE POINTS" (which everyone will have in each Zone), you'll have to decide-just like in Peloponnesian War, whether to take out the competition next to you or sit and stack waiting until a bloodbath between your neighbors is completed; BUT THE ADDED DIFFERENCE in this game play is that NOW you'll be able to ADDITIONALLY decide whether (with enough reserves & "RISK" :P ) to take a chance and plan for a Gang raid visa vie SECURELY CONTROLLING any part or all of the GANG PROJECTS for a whopping additional 21 armies. \:D/

As long as interest remains in keeping this map and its "semi-complex" structure alive, I will continue- in good faith- to draft as much as possible the necessary components in order to meet the foundry standards, pursuant to Conquer Club standards and agreements.
... But if the statistics, economics or other privy criteria governing map selection concludes that this "semi-complex/ linear/ non-traditional" map is not suitable and in the best interests of the common gamer at Conquer Club, then could the "powers to be" kindly let me know asap at their first available moment, that this map as it is structured, is not suitable. I respectfully ask this so that I may advance my plans for this map into another forum for personal entertainment purposes. Thanks in advance...



Map Cartographer:

luxCRUSADER O:)

Map Idea:

luxCRUSADER 8-)

Map Specifics:

Number of Continents: 8 + 6 single region continents (Gang Projects)
Number of Territories: 78
-Gangs: 32
-Police Departments: 16
-Politicians: 16
-Special Services: 8
-Gang Projects: 6
Neutral Start Points: TBA

Gimmicks:
1) One Way Attacks.
2) 3 dimensional attacking system ! via complete use of "ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS" concept. (first time ever in risk play)... As far as I know ... :-k
3) Balanced '3- Point' choke system for EACH of the 8 Continents on the Map, as a result of the 3 dimensional attack system.

Draft 5.1 of "Gang Crusades of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
Click image to enlarge.
image


Draft 5.1 of "Gang Crusades of TORONTO" SMALL VIEW
Click image to enlarge.
image



Problems from the last (4th) Draft:

1) Font too loud.
2) Politician attack line's dotted nature
3) From Oaktown, claiming that the title: "Gangs of TORONTO" conjures image of Gang warfare as it compares to the more problematic centers of Gang Plagued areas, like Los Angeles, Chicago or New York. Thus Selling this specific theme was imperative.

SUPPLEMENTAL changes made to most recent 5th Draft ( Now Draft 5.1) :

i) left only the numbers and letter for the 'RSP' (rock/paper/scissor- aka 'politician/cop/gang) to make map less busy in appearance (only).
ii)..lowered the pixel stroke of the Politician to 1, in an attempt to reduce "map busy-ness"
ii) added more cruisers racing with lights and sirens ... THAT IT ! this little amendment supplements the changes of Draft 5- ENJOY !!! ... \:D/

Changes Made in the 5th draft:
1) Title change to better "drive home" the theme of Toronto's success on Gangs and how the Conquer Club player can play as both 'Gangstar or Cop'; thus avoiding the need to sell a theme this author did not wish to make claim to.
2) Added 6 additional territories to compliment the theme of Toronto' recent and on-going Crusade on Gangs.
3) Removed 8 'Gang Units' from Map area to make it more spacious
3) Replaced Graffiti font of drafts 3 and 4 with another style set a much lower size.
4) Lowered opacity of all army circles; removed them completely on Police Divisions.
5) Added pleasing (hopefully pleasing) graphical images of Toronto, blending them into the brick walled background, helping to identify City of Toronto better.
6) Perhaps arguably, and finally: "nailed down" the explanations for ALL attacking systems on the map.
7) toned down the graphs of the Politicians attack route.
8) Changed the terms of Block to Zone and Turf to Division.
9) Added Zone Letters to Each Territory on the map. (Removed in Draft 5.1)

5th Draft Concerns:
1) Should I do away completely with the "white Graffiti fonts used to explain game mechanics ?
2) Has the Green Politician Lines finally been found appealing ?

Draft 5.0 of "Gang Crusades of TORONTO"...LARGE VIEW:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6194 ... onto5a.jpg

Draft 5.0 of "Gang Crusades of TORONTO"...SMALL VIEW
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6194 ... onto5a.jpg

Thank you to all who continue to support this project visa vie their most sincere and strong constructive criticism, which in its absence, I would not be able to progress with and assist my learning curve, in this very fun and exciting world of image editing.


Problems from the last (3rd) Draft:

1) Font not easy to read.
2) Map still cramped
3) Green dotted line hard to see in some spots
4) Use of Magnifying Glass
5) Legend of Turfs is overkill.
6) Visual attack system fine tuning.
7) Place Darker border around map, in lieu of the white border against Grey background
8) Solid/ Dotted lines explanation not clear enough.
9) Army circles.

Amendments made with this Fourth Draft:

1) In a last ditch effort to hopefully incorporate this “most wanted” type of graffiti font, I have increased the font size at the expense of a “gang dialogue” that used to spice up the gang theme of this map of the 3rd draft. My personal feeling is that the “most wanted” type of font used in both 3rd and 4th draft creates a more gang like atmosphere with the somewhat albeit challenging font style. I feel that once the Conquer Club player gets over the initial strain of deciphering between the letter ‘S’ and ‘T’ and other letters that it will be a pleasure to look at the gang style of writing during game play. I concede that, I could be very wrong about this point and eagerly await the forum feedback and “Foundry Map experts” opinions.
2) I increased the map playing size yet again, via cutting off the bottom 40 vertical pixels, thus creating a true 840 by 800 map. I also stretched the map about 7 percent downwards and 3 percent outwards in addition to the already increase of 40 horizontal pixels.
3) The former Green dotted lines are now black at the core and I used a light Green 1 pixel stroke, positioned on the outside, normal blending mode & opacity set at 75%.
4) The only reason I used the magnifying glass is to explain to Torontonians why their City Core ballooned about 35 percent. Magnifying glass is removed in 4th draft.
5) The legend of the 16 Turfs is gone.
6) The visual attack system is improved… TY “ thenobodies80” for identifying this area to me !
7) Darker Border was set around the white bordered map.
8) I’m hoping that the presence of a consensually agreed improved visual approach of this 4th draft has assisted in securing the issue of ‘making the dotted/ solid lines explanation more clear.
9) And lastly, I placed triple 8’s inside a 24 pixel circle for each territory found on the “Gangs of TORONTO” map.
10) Oh …. LOL… I pumped a few more bullets into the Grey Bricked Wall :-D …Just because I felt like it O:)
11) And perhaps more importantly, I have credited map maker "thenobodies80" for his humble encouragement to continue map making... CC has a very approachable member in "thenobodies80"... My only lament is being held responsible for the increased publicity that this 'VERY HUMBLE' individual is gonna get as a result of my credit to him. :(

Thank you to all who continue to support this project visa vie their most sincere and strong constructive criticism, which in its absence, I would not be able to progress with and assist my learning curve, in this very fun and exciting world of image editing.

4th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8699 ... 40x800.jpg

4th Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" SMALL VIEW
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/686/ ... 30x600.jpg


Changes made to 3rd Draft of “Gangs of TORONTO”:

1- Expanded the 4 core block areas using ‘magnifying glass’ effect.
2- Displayed all 1 way and 2 way connections of the map.
3- Devoted a larger amount of Imagery in lieu of the previously overused text legend of the 2nd Draft.
4- Changed the name of the Special Constable unit to Special Services to make it more generic, as per some concerns in CC forum.
5- Incorporated clockwise and counter clockwise connections for the Special Services Unit, in order to improve game play.
6- Changed background to create more of a gang setting.
7- Changed background content to create more of a gang setting.
8- Changed the Gang symbol to that of a gun for aesthetic reasons.
9- Purchased the “most wanted font” to enhance gang theme of map.

3nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" LARGE VIEW
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1112/g ... 00x800.jpg

3nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO" small view:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/881/ga ... 00x600.jpg


Changes made to the 2nd draft:

1) Continents increased to 8 from 5.
2) Sub-Continents lowered to 16 from 17.
3) Total territories decreased significantly to 80 from 106.
4) Added an additional type of territory.
5) Devoted a large amount of space to typed legend.
6) Improved aesthetic appearance of map.
7) Balanced the gangs evenly in all continents.
8) Labeled the territories on map.
9) Changed the bonuses value.


2nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO"
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3967 ... draftl.jpg
First Draft:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7796/gan ... olarge.jpg
Last edited by luxCRUSADER on Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:39 am, edited 39 times in total.
closing down my Conquer Club account due to the WAY 2 RANDOM dice that Conquer Club contracts to 'random.org' :) "I'm done" ! gonna play here: http://sillysoft.net/lux/
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby muddshark999 on Fri May 08, 2009 2:10 pm

good job pal when do we play :D
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby MarathonMax on Fri May 08, 2009 2:15 pm

Lux

I am impressed that you have the time to draft a map between your 100 games and the kids (oups, there's a wife too - or so I guess).

The concept is quite interesting. A few comments:

- You have to explain the rock/paper/scissors and how that would work. I know in real life, but here in CC-life?
- How do you come up with bonus numbers? I'd love to understand your map. My point is: should politicians have more bonus (although I know that in real life they are over rated LOL).
- Where are the gangs located on the map?
- I guess that the artwork is still a "work in progress"...
- Do we get special bonus for murderous gangs near the Eaton Centre ? LOL
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby Semsi on Fri May 08, 2009 2:16 pm

I'd be happy to help out if it goes to Beta Testing. Looks an interesting map.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Fri May 08, 2009 2:33 pm

THANKS SO MUCH GUYS !!!

This is EXACTLY what I'm looking at !

I really need your most brutal comments.

OK let me address the comments by 'max...'

Regarding: - "You have to explain the rock/paper/scissors and how that would work. I know in real life, but here in CC-life?"
Response: the concept is difficult to see but it is explained on the map; and even here, absolutely, I will improving the legibility.

Regarding the comment: "- How do you come up with bonus numbers? I'd love to understand your map. My point is: should politicians have more bonus (although I know that in real life they are over rated LOL)."
Response: Great question, cuz frankly, this one will MOST probably lead to a poll.

Regarding the comment: "- Where are the gangs located on the map?"
Response: I need to polish up the legend better- but on the map where I have the Gang word, I should have placed the image of a gang member more closer to the word Gang so that one can see that the 'gang figure' marked throughout the Toronto area. Because of the small boundaries in 52 and 51 Division, my 'gang figure' needed to be small, yet large enough to be visible- I'll have to re-examine this area- thx so much for this critique !! thx max- its what I really need :-D

Regarding: "- I guess that the artwork is still a "work in progress"..."
Response: " ABSOLUTELY !!!! "

Regarding the comment: "Do we get special bonus for murderous gangs near the Eaton Centre ? LOL"
Response: LOL !!! Gangs will meet in various hotspots in Toronto- but I have chosen thus far to bring realism to the issue of our growing gang problems in Toronto and so have taken the view to have the major gangs marked on the map as they are based in reality. No question, Gangs in subways, the Bloods are scattered throughout Toronto- Malvern Crew is really playing a HUGE part in taking over city wide operations. But Eaton Center was not marked :-D

Wow - thx guys Keep bring on the HARD CORE criticisms- I need them to pass the scrutiny of our esteemed Map Foundry, Mr. Benn/ company :-D

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby pizzame on Fri May 08, 2009 2:58 pm

I like it. Don't know if the individual territories are difficult to make out the details due the enlargement, but I think the clarity needs a little work. Love the concept. Good Job.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby mattosaurus on Fri May 08, 2009 3:06 pm

The whole layout is confusing. It could be interesting gameplay, but the layout needs to be much clearer. What are the territories? It also will get a bit crowded in the heavy gang areas, so that might be something to worry about.

You might want to go for a non-literal map if you want to include all the politicians. Or you could do a blow up portion of the map, but be sure to make it intuitive where the blow up is coming from. Some maps that are currently being played don't make that very clear.

Make sure to spell out in detail how the reinforcements work if its a non classic form, which this one is.

For everything I've said up to this point, here is a map that has all the mistake I'm pointing out check out the Imperium Romanum map. Totally confusing on all these points.

Make who can attack who as clear as possible. Lines are best for a non territorial map like this.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Fri May 08, 2009 5:42 pm

OK .... If I had done (forthcoming in next version) a better job of making more legible the instructions on the map. The questions regarding territorial connections would have not been confusing.

What I want to give from this map is a close to real concept of life in Toronto as it applies to Gangs, Police and Politics.

Politics influences Police Budget. Police Budgets dictate the resources available to deal/tackle (aka attack) the major Gangs in communities. Gangs if held unaccountable and allowed to grow out of control, the community, its leaders and politicians become overrun with corruption.

So I have introduced the "rock- paper - scissors " concept of engagement; whereby, Politicians can 1 way attack Police AND 2 way attack neighboring Politicians. Police can 1 way attack Gangs. Gangs can 1 way attack Politicians AND 2 way attack each other gang ONLY WITHIN the same police divisional area. In other words a gang from 22 division is not going to be able to attack a gang from another division. But one gang from 22 division (for example) can attack ANY gang within the same divisional boundary of the attacker.

I have cut the map into the natural and realistic demographics of Tortonto's 17 Police Divisions. In each division there are anywhere from 0 to 10 Major gangs, 1 politician, and 1 police division. All fighting occurs within a division, utilizing the "rock/paper/scissors" concept talked above. One exception is where politicians can 2 way attack adjacent politicians, between their joining respective divisions. These politicians then act as "choke points" that each of us try to secure in expansion in our games (ie much the way Brazil acts in the first world map etc)

I then took the 17 divisions and clustered them into 5 bonus areas. For now, there are 5 different colored bonus areas on the map, where within each bonus area yields +2 for securing all Politicians of that colored bonus region; +3 for ALL police divisions secured in the same colored area; +5 for securing ALL gangs of the same colored areas. The colored bonus areas are for Torontonians the former political regions before this city was amalgamated.

In summary, there are 72 Major Gangs, marked on the map, in its true location, with the 'standing gang figure' and 17 politicians and 17 Police Divisions. The total from these numbers gives a final 106 territories in the game, on this map.

Please continue to bring all your concerns and suggestions here so that I may improve the map.

I really hope this has clarified things.

I continually play this "Gangs of Toronto" map privately on the Lux Delux game engine (risk) and am finding the game fairly well balanced (so far) LOL

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (map-first version)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Fri May 08, 2009 6:41 pm

I just noticed one MAJOR oversight, which is to have each and every territory marked in its true name. Stupid me. Sorry folks. That would help explain the mass confusion. Its easy for me to know each and every territory- but it is not realistic for the viewer to know - stupid me :roll:

This draft copy is living up to its billing LOL

Back to my photo editing program ;)

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat May 09, 2009 10:29 pm

I have no idea what I am looking at. Every territory has a gang member, politician, and police symbol?
There aren't enough territories. I belive CC has some kind of minimum. If the gangs and politicians and police are also terts, then I don't think you'll have enough room?
The graphics aren't great, and the colors may not work. You'd have to get a c-firm from one of the regular foundry workers though.
You named the boundries but not the terts? You really don't need to name the boundries,... let's not confuse anyone here.
No army circles? Or are the numbers in the terts your army circles?

I'm not sure what you are going for. Are the police, politicians, and gangs all supposed to have their own army circle in each tert? (Some don't have room though?) So that each tert is really three terts? Then say if I own the gang, I can attack the politician in the same tert or a neighboring tert? That is an interesting and a DIFFEREN'T(!) idea, but I don't know if CC can accomidate it. Plus, I'm not sure that is what you are going for. I realize this is a draft so I hope that I'm not too critical. I think you need a foundry regular to step in and tell you the whole map making rules thing.

luxCRUSADER wrote:So I have introduced the "rock- paper - scissors " concept of engagement; whereby, Politicians can 1 way attack Police AND 2 way attack neighboring Politicians. Police can 1 way attack Gangs. Gangs can 1 way attack Politicians AND 2 way attack each other gang ONLY WITHIN the same police divisional area. In other words a gang from 22 division is not going to be able to attack a gang from another division. But one gang from 22 division (for example) can attack ANY gang within the same divisional boundary of the attacker.


Yup! you have to fit this^, on the map.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun May 10, 2009 9:05 am

Some quick suggestions:

  • Post the image with [BigImg] tags
    Code: Select all
    [BigImg]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7796/gangsoftorontolarge.jpg[/BigImg]
  • The map is very confusing now, make more clear territory, if i look your map now i see only 17 territories (few) and 5 zones.
  • Adjust colors, the map hurts eyes
  • Cover the unnecessary zones (google earth zone ;) )
  • borders needs a clean up
  • I think that streets are only to give a geographical settlment, not needed to make them so visible.
  • I understand the logic of scissor-stone-paper attacks, but actually it's impossible to understand how this one will work on the map. Each symbol is an army circle?
  • What do you mean with "attack and influence" ?

There's a lot do here, but obviously it's only the first draft :)
I'll return soon... ;)

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Sun May 10, 2009 12:41 pm

thx so much everyone - I am in process of making the next draft of this map more understandable and legible - and yes less painful on da eyes ;)

Keep bringing on the HARD constructive criticisms - I beg you all :D

Have a great day people !

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby gimil on Sun May 10, 2009 4:22 pm

From what I can see so far I don't believe you have the graphics ability to take a map through to quenching. Your first and foremost priority should be to learning and familiarising yourself with your software. Btw what software are you using?

It is good that you are willing to take hard and fast feedback but I think you should learn to better use your software first. Hope my advice helps, and welcome to the foundry :)
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Sun May 10, 2009 7:08 pm

gimil wrote:From what I can see so far I don't believe you have the graphics ability to take a map through to quenching. Your first and foremost priority should be to learning and familiarising yourself with your software. Btw what software are you using?

It is good that you are willing to take hard and fast feedback but I think you should learn to better use your software first. Hope my advice helps, and welcome to the foundry :)


You "gimil" need to be commended for your astute observations. Yes you are correct. I have never done image editing, other then made a collage for my son's first year of photos about 7 years ago using Microsofts generic photo imaging software- had about 100 stills blended into one picture with my son's face in the middle- it really was well done and took over a week to do.

But I fear I may be in over my head, as far as time frame goes. I WILL try my hardest to get a better looking draft.

I first bought ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CSE, about 2 weeks ago, but found the interface a little bit challenging to work around. I then purchased and am currently using COREL PAINT SHOP PRO PHOTO X2.

And am gonna try really hard to get a crash course in image editing, besides simply layering something to death. I will try to get this project off the ground.

And yes your advice helps- and I appreciate it.

If there are any links that you have saved for persons like myself that are in need of learning more about image editing, please forward them to me. When I get home from work tonight, it will be the second order of business following the completion of my turns on my over 100 active games, which I am gonna slow down on to devout more time on this subject.

Thanks again for your care and concern. It is appreciated. ;)

If there are any additional concerns and/or suggestions that you may have, please let me know.

Thanks in advance for your time and sincere help. ;)

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Mon May 11, 2009 2:12 am

@ thenobodies80:

I would like to thank 'thenobodies80' for his very helpful insight and encouragement. I just want everyone to know that because of thenobodies80's VALUABLE assistance in supplying me with the very informative 'imaging educational' links offered here at Conquer Club together with his encouraging words, I will be working very hard to to get my first drafted map to the professional level of expertise, that has come to be recognized as the Conquer Club's signature standard of excellence in the worldwide gaming forums in the area of Map Making.

My next draft will not be submitted until such time that I am able to take complete control and command of the imaging tools offered in the excellent program (ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CS3) that I have already purchased.

Thanks in advance for your understanding; and I apologized for the butchery job done to the first draft of this map: "Gangs of TORONTO".

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby oaktown on Tue May 12, 2009 12:36 am

luxCRUSADER wrote:I first bought ADOBE PHOTOSHOP CSE, about 2 weeks ago, but found the interface a little bit challenging to work around. I then purchased and am currently using COREL PAINT SHOP PRO PHOTO X2.

My advice would be to go back to using Photoshop. Take a class at your local community college - it'll be worth every minute. Photoshop will take three times as long to master, but you'll be able to do ten times as much.

And no, your first draft isn't much to look at, but some of my maps looked just as bad to begin with. Right now the important thing is presenting us with an image we can read clearly and give you good feedback on - much of the text on your current draft is too small for me to make out.

Glad to hear the gangs control the politicians in Toronto... I thought it was a phenomenon unique to Oakland. ;)
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby MarathonMax on Tue May 12, 2009 9:58 am

Lux

One idea to gather your map image:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 35962&z=10
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Tue May 12, 2009 12:26 pm

maximegousse wrote:Lux

One idea to gather your map image:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie ... 35962&z=10



Thank you maximegousse... you are a good friend. I appreciate you honest and great constructive criticisms you and everyone have given.


maximegousse wrote:Lux

You have to explain the rock/paper/scissors and how that would work. I know in real life, but here in CC-life?



First of all, I plan to increase the total continents from 5 to 7.

Moreover, I have made game play changes by of incorporating more specialized units that I feel enhance the game play value. Right now the units I have employed are Politicians, Police and Gangs. These are all territories. But I plan to add CSU (Community Safety Units) and Crime Rate Territories. Most importantly I have taken the time to clearly explain the territories, "sub-continents", and continents (bonus areas). The sub-continent component was not at all clearly explained and is, I believe the sole source of confusion.

The "sub-continent" concept which actually isn't new as Mr. Benn uses a different variation of this concept, extremely well in his AMAZING Wales map. In my map I use the "sub-continents" simply to get that "turf" feel between Police and Gangs, much in the same way Mr. Benn used the two clans fighting over the settlement; but Mr. Benn goes further to give a small bonus to his 'sub-continent'. In my map concept, the sub-continents are simply the police divisions and have no bonus.

I wish I could go on with the specialized units- but without the map, I risk adding only more confusion. So be patient. But imagine fighting gangs for control over Crime Rates. The Police wanna lower the crime rate & Gangs don't care if they go through the roof. So I have started to create a scenario where only Police and gangs can one-way attack Crime Rate (territories). For experienced CC members this should all remind everyone of the Alcatraz territory in the AMAZING San Fransisco Map.

Adding the CSU territory brings into the 'frying pan' the vital role played by Special Constables in the "intelligence chatter" between communities in Toronto. So in this map the CSU will effectively be a double edged sword for players, as its choke point ability to shut down all 'backdoor' attempts to 'pop' a players bonus, while because of its "multi-directional attacking abilites the CSU can create a situation where players from one end of the map can bring their forces to bear on the complete other side of the board, since all CSU units (7 total on map- 1 in each continent) will be able to 2 way attack each other throughout the whole map. In other words, the CSU can work for you or against you; and it will be important to invest in its entity. :)

OK I'm gonna go on a limb and post what will end up in text on the next future drafted map:
(bear in mind, this has added components to the new work in progress, that is not anywhere marked in the first "crappy draft").
I'm curious if this text helps clear things up:

TERRITORIES (130):
17 Politician (image); 17 Police Department (image); 72 Gang (image); 17 Crime Rate (image); and 7 CSU (image);

SUB- CONTINENTS (17):
There are 17 “SUB- continents”, separated from each other by a BLACK LINE.

CONTINENTS (7) (Colored BONUS AREAS):
There are 7 Continental bonus areas, marked by differing colours.
Continents are made up of 2 or 3 SUB- continents.
+3 armies for holding all Politicians in a continent.
+4 armies for holding all Police Stations in a continent.
+5 armies for holding all Gangs in a continent.
+2 armies for holding all Crime Rates in a continent.

ATTACKS/ TERRITORIAL CONNECTIONS:
Within Sub-continents:
-Politician can 1-way attack Police Departments which can 1-way attack Gangs, which can 1 way-attack Politicians.
-Gangs & Police can 1 way attack Crime Rate Territory.(can’t attack-what goes in:stays)
-Any gang within a continent can 2 ways attack the CSU within their own continent.
Outside sub-continental attacks:
-ONLY Politicians can 2-way attack the Politician from an ADJACENT sub-continent.
-every CSU can all 2-way attack any other CSU from other Continents.

I actually wish someone with more expertise in map making could pick up the map as I would like it DEMOGRAPHICALLY defined, the rest I wouldn't care- The only credit I would like is to be recognized for the map concept/idea. I have done Civilization modding working with XML files so I'm sure I will be OK with that end- as long as there is no python and C++, I should be fine. But on the map making end of things, I am lead to believe that I have less than a month to put together another draft; and given my amateur image editing status, I am really gonna be pressed to get this map done in time. But we'll see O:

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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby oaktown on Tue May 12, 2009 2:10 pm

your plan sounds overly ambitious... making a 130 territory map is difficult for even the most experienced CC mapmaker, both in terms of balancing the gameplay and crafting the image. As you are still find your wings graphically I would strongly suggest that you focus on making a good map, not on making a really complex map. Right now this map is a miss for me thematically (Gangs of Toronto doesn't strike the same terror as, say Gangs of East L.A. for example), so in order to make it work you've got your work cut out for you... don't pile it on yourself by trying to do too much all at once.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (First Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Tue May 12, 2009 3:39 pm

oaktown wrote:your plan sounds overly ambitious... making a 130 territory map is difficult for even the most experienced CC mapmaker, both in terms of balancing the gameplay and crafting the image. As you are still find your wings graphically I would strongly suggest that you focus on making a good map, not on making a really complex map. Right now this map is a miss for me thematically (Gangs of Toronto doesn't strike the same terror as, say Gangs of East L.A. for example), so in order to make it work you've got your work cut out for you... don't pile it on yourself by trying to do too much all at once.



Thank you Oaktown for your comments and suggestions- I will definitely be taking courses; but in the meantime, I will do my best to get the next draft done before the approximate months deadline. Thats my fear- as I do not wish this to go into the recycling bin to be picked up by someone else so that they may run away with. If this happens... oh well :roll:

Regarding the gameplay balancing issues you discuss, of course its not my opinion that matters but I have converted the my map into the lux delux (risk) game engine and have played several games on it to find the game play very enjoyable. But of course, and respectively, I submit that its not my opinion that matters.

If, on ocassion you similarly use the lux delux game engine, and have tons of time on your hands, and would like to play against computer AI with my map, I would be more than willing to e-mail the appropriate lux program files so that you may have a go on it privately; or I can give you my IP address and we can play a private game on it if you'd like. I understand if you don't. Everyone's busy. It's hard to imagine that there is actually life beyond Conquer Club- my wife thinks I would die if the web site got a power failure. :lol:

Back to work and then back to ADOBE PHOTOSHOP.

Take care and thx for the comments Oaktown.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (2nd Draft)

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed May 20, 2009 2:31 pm

I'm back! :D
I'm very happy to see the big graphic improvement that you did =D> Better than your first draft, better ...but this is only the first step. :!:

I saw you edited your first post, but you need to do a new reply to make all able to see that you updated the map.
And finally your post will be always in the lower part of the list in the drafting room. ;)

Some suggestions/critics about your new draft:

  • H,G,F,E zones are a too full!
  • Army circles cover symbols.I think you can try not to use the circles.Or if you want to use them , they need more transparency.
  • The map is 800x800 but you used 350 px to do the legend. :? Some informations could be erased easily. (For example you don't need to write how many territories are on the map). Try to use a more summary way to explain things. (sometimes you can use graphic to explain things).
  • Small version: legible and clear ? :-k

Finally oaktown spoke right, be careful...don't think your map too tricky.
Now try to work on the map/legend size. With a bigger map and a smaller legend you probably can find some new and useful space.

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All PMs are autobinned.
If you need to contact me, you should already have a way to do it without using this site.
Thanks to those who helped me through the years. :)
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (2nd Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Wed May 20, 2009 3:08 pm

Hello everyone:

Changes made to the 2nd draft:

1) Continents increased to 8 from 5.
2) Sub-Continents lowered to 16 from 17.
3) Total territories decreased significantly to 80 from 106.
4) Added an additional type of territory.
5) Devoted a large amount of space to typed legend.
6) Improved aesthetic appearance of map.
7) Balanced the gangs evenly in all continents.
8) Labeled the territories on map.
9) Changed the bonuses value.


2nd Draft of "Gangs of TORONTO"
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (2nd Draft)

Postby luxCRUSADER on Thu May 21, 2009 1:55 am

thenobodies80 wrote:I'm back! :D
I'm very happy to see the big graphic improvement that you did =D> Better than your first draft, better ...but this is only the first step. :!:

I saw you edited your first post, but you need to do a new reply to make all able to see that you updated the map.
And finally your post will be always in the lower part of the list in the drafting room. ;)

Some suggestions/critics about your new draft:

  • H,G,F,E zones are a too full!
  • Army circles cover symbols.I think you can try not to use the circles.Or if you want to use them , they need more transparency.
  • The map is 800x800 but you used 350 px to do the legend. :? Some informations could be erased easily. (For example you don't need to write how many territories are on the map). Try to use a more summary way to explain things. (sometimes you can use graphic to explain things).
  • Small version: legible and clear ? :-k

Finally oaktown spoke right, be careful...don't think your map too tricky.
Now try to work on the map/legend size. With a bigger map and a smaller legend you probably can find some new and useful space.

thenobodies80


As usual: "thx a million" for your very helpful advice.

Re: Zones E,F,G,H being too full- I am thinking about creating a bubbling effect to those zoned areas or as you suggest, to simply stretch the map a little in lieu of the legend being shrunk. :)

Re: Army circles. I was wanting originally to have more transparency, so I'm happy to hear that it would be acceptable; and I was also thinking about adding a transparent tone to the original territory itself. Either way, I hope to create the "perfect transparent effect" 8-)

Re: Legend to be decreased, this is something that I will definitely shrink. I just was worried that I was losing people with lack of information. So ... yep, I went overboard on that one. :roll:

Re: Small version of the map- I''ll be honest and say: that I'm a little confused about this one. The second draft that I am working from was of course created in its original ADOBE PHOTOSHOP format, using the dimensions of 1500 by 1500 pixels. I ended up with an alarming 18 MB sized file. I then saved a copy of this psd file, saving it into a 1 MB jpeg, which I then re-imaged it under the required 840 by 800 px. So when you say small jpeg, I simply re-imaged the original 1 MB jpeg file to the 640 by 600 file that I have enclosed in the first post.

I submit all this information because with respect to the process of creating a smaller image, I fear that I missing something ??? And I am so pleased that you continue to forgive me for not having the 'image software acumen' as compared to the more experienced map-makers here in this forum. :D I'm working on it- as you know, I have just started this map-making business in the last month. :oops:

And finally, on the last point raised concerning the caution not to make the map 'too tricky': I will follow the communities suggestions under the foundry's helpful and constructive scrutiny; so this I am basically at the mercy of others, and have no intention of stirring the pot with any extravagant ideas. You will remember from an earlier post in this thread, I was going to throw in an additional unit with the territorial count reaching an alarming 130 !!! When I got 'down and dirty' with ADOBE PHOTOSHOP' I quickly began to realize that it was not gonna happen aesthetically. I would have had to insist all game players use a magnifying glass in order to play on that 130 territory map- :lol: That is why I eventually settled on the 80 total territories. There is a lot of game playing that I plan to do on this 2nd drafted map, so If I see any concerns, as they relate to game balance, I will raise them first here in the community before making wild changes. :)

Anyways, I am so pleased to be a part of this community of gamers and map-makers that I am very grateful for the time you are taking in helping me to push this map as far as it may go.

Cheers,
luxCRUSADER ;)
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (2nd Draft)

Postby MarathonMax on Thu May 21, 2009 8:31 am

A quick comment: your map is way too busy and you will not be able to reduce it further. I would suggest that you break down "continents" into territs that would be your gangs. Then, for politicians, do a side map, a bit like this map about nuclear warfare where we see a ballistic missile on the side of the map. This "side map" could be labelled "City Hall". Then, on the other side of the map, do the same for Police precincts. You may want to use colour codes to match politicians and police with their assigned territs. As for the SCs, I don't get them! Are they cross border?

Here's a very quick (and very dirty) example:

hum... can't find how to include an image...

Lux, send me your email address using a PM so that I can post that to you
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Re: Gangs of TORONTO (2nd Draft)

Postby RjBeals on Thu May 21, 2009 8:55 am

This map is way too confusing. Way too much action in the center area, and not enough evenly spaced around the map.

Since there is so much text in the legend, I would suggest making it fit in with the map better than just typed out like you have it. Reference how mibi created his legend on the Iraq map.

i think the army circles make it more confusing. See if you can figure a way to remove them.

Colors are okay, but sort of bland. They don't make the nicest pallet - but it's okay. I like the right side (black/blue/red).

You are enthusiastic, professional, and hopefully open to honest feedback and critiques.
I wish you good luck on this map.
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