the Holy Land of Israel

[elchananj]

How about developing such a map.
I mean both sides of the Jordan river...
on the base of today maps of the states of Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Syria, etc...
dividing it by the destined or original locations of the 12 tribes.

the problem is I don't have experience in photo developing.

[Gnome]

I can't vote...can you show us an image of it? maybe just a picture from the Internet?

[jasnostj]

Tricky. It really triggered me, in a negative sense.

Start by calling it "The 12 Tribes" instead of "The Holy Land of Israel". Then stress out that it is only minor portions of modern Jordan, Syria and Lebanon (and Egypt) that are included. The map below makes clear this idea is not as controversial as it sounds.

I really like the historical context, and the 12 tribes would make great bonuses. But in order for this to succeed you must make absolutely sure this will stay ancient history, and has nothing to do with the current situation.

[tim02]

I tried to do a map of it but couldn't do xml and didn't have anything better then ms paint, I could do some geography for you and would really like to get involved I also think we should get some big names round hear because this is a really interesting map due to all the battles in the past

We could probably find someone to do xml, if you now how you should try graphics

[tim02]

and has nothing to do with the current situation.

very true

[bryguy]

yea the main reason that most of my maps never get shown is i cant do xml >_< the armys always end up off in a corner bundled up together

[oaktown]

The xml is the easy part - there are any number of us that could knock out the XML for you in no time, especially if you can put together a map that doesn't require centering coordinates on army circles.

You've got many, many hours of work ahead of you on the graphics, and past attempts at mapping this region have found that it is fraught with political/emotional baggage around what to call each region... by using either the names Palestine or Israel you've already risked upsetting some folks.

My recommendation would be to choose a very specific year and be clear that you are representing the region as of that specific time... don't say it's a "modern" map or a "historical" map because there are many interpretations of both.

[elchananj]

that is why we must do a small amount of research first.
please go through:
http://www.answers.com/topic/promised-land

Personally, I disagree with some definitions there and the attitude towards my people, but this (political\religious) argument is irrelevent to our goal here in Conqure Club.
We only want to create a game map.

I thought maybe we should choose the time of ths Kings David & Solomon.
Such a map could be a big and interesting battle field, becuase it is said to be the peak of the Israeli Kingdom ever. (Geographicly, among other things)
this way, as was said here before me, we can easily agree on one map, and concentrate on technically building it. (Virtually)

thanks for the comments.
still hoping someone will take this project...
Elchanan J.

[elchananj]

about the maps I just posted:
the first is from the "answers" website.
It's of Kings David & Solomon Rule.
the second is to show a list of biblic places we can include.
the third is irrelevent if we choose David & Solomons' time,
Because it describes the later time, when the Kingdom Broke to two,
Jehuda & Israel.

[jasnostj]

Why not stick to the Tribes, I really like them as bonuses.
Plus the territory is a bit smaller, might be less upsetting to some.
The last thing we want to do is make people believe you are seeking a greater Israel. All we want is an interesting bit of history and a good map.

[elchananj]

The 12 tribes are a good idea for bonuses, i agree.
I did'nt go for something else. It's a question of what time to take.
because the kingdom had a lot of ups and downs.
so from time in history are we going to take our map of the 12 tribes?
I agree with your idea to name it "the 12 tribes".

as i said before, my view of today should not effect the map.
we are not discussing today, but are looking for an old map.

[bloknayrb]

Sounds like a good idea, but I don't know if I have time to take on another project right now... Also, it would have to be a vertically oriented map, so I'm not sure how that would work with the size guidelines.

Also, it's either Judah, or Yehuda, it's weird to mix the two spellings like that.

Just wondering, where in Israel are you from?

[elchananj]

I think the best translation is Jehuda.
not only because It's how I spell my last name (my name is Elchanan Jehuda).
but also because Yehuda is how you say it in hebrew (that's the language I speak here in Israel), and Judah is how It is spelled in some translations of the bible. I think Jehuda is a good compromise I mean, the bible was written in hebrew, originally...

and about the map, we could go for different versions of the Whole land of Israel.
this is the "whole land of israel" page in hebrew wikipedia:

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94
their definition for the Whole Land of Israel:

and a link to a large sattalite map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Near_east_lrg.jpg

I live in the Lower Gallili of Israel, in a small place between the Sea of Gallili and the city of Haifa.

[bloknayrb]

You may spell it like that, but that doesn't mean that the standard spelling is that way... Judah is the anglicized version of the original Yehuda, which is spelled with a "Y" because in English the Y makes the same sound as the yud in Hebrew.
Where is your family originally from? I've never seen that spelling before...

[elchananj]

well I don't care that much how it will be spelled,
just expressing my opinion.
my family is from the city of Zfat. (upper Gallili)

[bloknayrb]

Wow, beautiful area up there.

I'd actually love to make this map, but lately I barely even have the time to work on my own. Still, I think this is a really good idea, with a lot of potential for excellent gameplay, and I'd very much like to see it get made.

[elchananj]

I mean, I'm not in a hurry...
If you'll find the time to do it, great.
If not, someone else might.
Thanks for your opinion.

[jasnostj]

and about the map, we could go for different versions of the Whole land of Israel.
this is the "whole land of israel" page in hebrew wikipedia:

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94
their definition for the Whole Land of Israel:

Why not take ALL lands from the Arabs? Makes a nice WWIII map too.

[bloknayrb]

and about the map, we could go for different versions of the Whole land of Israel.
this is the "whole land of israel" page in hebrew wikipedia:

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%A5_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%9E%D7%94
their definition for the Whole Land of Israel:

Why not take ALL lands from the Arabs? Makes a nice WWIII map too.

That's why it's a map of the past... back when there weren't any Arab countries at all... I don't really see a problem with this, unless you have issue with the Jews maybe oppressing the Assyrians and Moabites on this map...

[elchananj]

were considering history here, as I said, and those borders are based upon verses from the bible like:
Genesis Chapter 15:

In that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: 'Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates. the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.'

Deuteronomy Chapter 34:

And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, even Gilead as far as Dan. and all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the hinder sea. and the South, and the Plain, even the valley of Jericho the city of palm-trees, as far as Zoar. And the LORD said unto him: 'This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying: I will give it unto thy seed; I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.

Joshua Chapter 1:

'Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel. Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, to you have I given it, as I spoke unto Moses. From the wilderness, and this Lebanon, even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border.

[rebelman]

Why is isreal included in this title - would not the Holy land be more accurate

[elchananj]

It's because as you can see in the bible, this land belongs to Israel. it is never said to be holy for another nation other than the people of Israel.
for example:
Numbers Chapter 34:

1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 2 'Command the children of Israel, and say unto them: When ye come into the land of Canaan, this shall be the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan according to the borders thereof. 3 Thus your south side shall be from the wilderness of Zin close by the side of Edom, and your south border shall begin at the end of the Salt Sea eastward; 4 and your border shall turn about southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, and pass along to Zin; and the goings out thereof shall be southward of Kadesh-barnea; and it shall go forth to Hazar-addar, and pass along to Azmon; 5 and the border shall turn about from Azmon unto the Brook of Egypt, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Sea. 6 And for the western border, ye shall have the Great Sea for a border; this shall be your west border. 7 And this shall be your north border: from the Great Sea ye shall mark out your line unto mount Hor; 8 from mount Hor ye shall mark out a line unto the entrance to Hamath; and the goings out of the border shall be at Zedad; 9 and the border shall go forth to Ziphron, and the goings out thereof shall be at Hazar-enan; this shall be your north border. 10 And ye shall mark out your line for the east border from Hazar-enan to Shepham; 11 and the border shall go down from Shepham to Riblah, on the east side of Ain; and the border shall go down, and shall strike upon the slope of the sea of Chinnereth eastward; 12 and the border shall go down to the Jordan, and the goings out thereof shall be at the Salt Sea; this shall be your land according to the borders thereof round about.' 13 And Moses commanded the children of Israel, saying: 'This is the land wherein ye shall receive inheritance by lot, which the LORD hath commanded to give unto the nine tribes, and to the half-tribe; 14 for the tribe of the children of Reuben according to their fathers' houses, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to their fathers' houses, have received, and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received, their inheritance; 15 the two tribes and the half-tribe have received their inheritance beyond the Jordan at Jericho eastward, toward the sun-rising.'

you can easily read it yourself at:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

[tim02]

Why not take ALL lands from the Arabs? Makes a nice WWIII map too.

It's the end of the world as we know it!

So true

maybe you should have bonuses for thee U.N and minus bonuses for the west bank and Gaza strip

[d.gishman]

Why not take ALL lands from the Arabs? Makes a nice WWIII map too.

It's the end of the world as we know it!

So true

maybe you should have bonuses for thee U.N and minus bonuses for the west bank and Gaza strip

again, this is a HISTORICAL map. Why should there be politics involved?

[Twill]

There will always be politics involved in a map like this, simply because there is some serious politics surrounding the "issue" of the Israeli state.

I'd say strip out ANY reference to religion (is that possible?) and avoid using the word israel anywhere and you'd face much less opposition from a lot of people.

use sentences like "the Bible says..." is just going to set people against you because this becomes a religiously motivated map not a historical one (religion does not equal historical) and it becomes part of the discourse on Israel which is seeped in controversy.

Good luck