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Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Gillipig on Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:09 am

I think I can understand AAFitz theory and there is one big thing that brings your theory and atheism together and one big thing that bring your theory and religion together; you believe that we aren't special or choosen, and you believe that something intentionally created the materia. (thats how I understood you, correct me if I'm wrong) A lot of religions say we are special or choosen, and atheists say that we aren't choosen! Atheist explanation of the creating of the world is that materia was created through energy tightly compressing into one little area until it the big bang finally occured. The energy who inturn created materia is explained to be created out of nothing, (this is one of the vaguest of the atheistic theories but that is the best teory to a very hard question, "How can anything at all exist if no one made it" "It made itself through a natural process we so far know very little about" )
And religious people says god made us! I'm an Atheist and I go for what my logik tells me, when I'm confronted with a problem I don't use faith to try to solve it. And it's not because I'm a heartless person I just think that it's the way to solve intellectual problems that is how most atheists want to solve a problem. And I'm aware of that some people use their faith in the said situation, And often thoose people are religious, not really hard to understand that people who like to use logik will never buy religion, and people who use faith will never buy atheism. It's two different types of people, and to try to convince someone who for an exampel is not exepting faith to solve intellectual problems is never going to work, he want other argument then a cristian can give him, and vice versa!
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Artimis on Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:01 am

AAFitz wrote:My point here is this. By all means believe in whatever you want to believe in..god, santa, membrane theory or evolution...but never close your mind to other possibilities, because the odds of all of your beliefs being correct at any given time, are extremely unlikely... and though it may be scary not to know where everything and everyone came from, closing your mind to the possibilities, and discouraging those possibilities in others, is perhaps the most dangerous thing the human race can do. And above all else, dont give up searching for the answers, just because they seem too difficult to discover.


HEAR! HEAR!

Exactly so. A doctor at the hospital I work in told me that in the practice of medicine: "The lifespan of new medical facts is approximately 50 years." That means that if after 50 years it hasn't been disproved then it's very unlikely to get disproved in the future. The more I think about it the more that particular rule of thumb applies to other scientific facts. But don't worry, 500 years after Columbus proved the world was round it's not suddenly going to snap back flat again, because it's already withstood the first 50 years of scrutiny! Not the mention how much that would screw up any given space program's launch trajectories! :lol: That all said, I'm in complete agreement with AAFitz that we should question everything at least once, even the obvious. :)
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:21 pm

Artimis wrote:
Exactly so. A doctor at the hospital I work in told me that in the practice of medicine: "The lifespan of new medical facts is approximately 50 years." That means that if after 50 years it hasn't been disproved then it's very unlikely to get disproved in the future. The more I think about it the more that particular rule of thumb applies to other scientific facts. But don't worry, 500 years after Columbus proved the world was round it's not suddenly going to snap back flat again, because it's already withstood the first 50 years of scrutiny! Not the mention how much that would screw up any given space program's launch trajectories! :lol: That all said, I'm in complete agreement with AAFitz that we should question everything at least once, even the obvious. :)



You are missing the absolutely phenomenal rate at which information is progressing. There have been far more advances and changes in the past 50 years than in the previous 5000 (roughy)! There have been more changes in the past 20 years than in the previous 100
.. time keeps shortening.

It is because of this, not plain inertia, that many things have moved from the realm of "mere possibilities" (like Evolution when Darwin proposed it) to "almost fact" (like Evolution today).
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby deceangli on Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:42 am

The key point in this whole debate, which seems to keep getting lost in the various sidetracking, is that evolution is a strong (albeit challenging) theory with a massive range of supporting evidence. I'm sure our evolutionary thinking will develop over time, but it seems very unlikely that the core ideas will go - rather, that we will come to understand the mechansisms better.

On the other hand we have a small band of very vocal Christian sect members - since most Christian churches don't have a difficulty with evolution - trying to tell us that evolution is wrong because it conflicts with their rather barmy interpretation of a set of archaeological texts which are, themselves, contradictory. Seems a waste of everybody's time and energy, really.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:21 pm

deceangli wrote:The key point in this whole debate, which seems to keep getting lost in the various sidetracking, is that evolution is a strong (albeit challenging) theory with a massive range of supporting evidence. I'm sure our evolutionary thinking will develop over time, but it seems very unlikely that the core ideas will go - rather, that we will come to understand the mechansisms better.

On the other hand we have a small band of very vocal Christian sect members - since most Christian churches don't have a difficulty with evolution - trying to tell us that evolution is wrong because it conflicts with their rather barmy interpretation of a set of archaeological texts which are, themselves, contradictory. Seems a waste of everybody's time and energy, really.

Problem is that this small sect (and yes, I agree it is) is unfortunately having a very large impact on us all. Roughly 25% of the Bush administration believed in the young Earth. Schools across the country are facing challanges to Evolution. Many end up buckling simply because they don't have the funds to fight the opposition.

This movement challanges the very core of science and its principals. Read Widowmaker's arguments. Sorry, I cannot tell you were he said it (in t his forum... I can cite where he said it over and over in the Real U. discussion), but he is of the very firm opinion that not only was Evolution a theory created to dispute Christianity, but that most of science has that goal. (though he does claim to embrace "some" science). He has said on more than one occasion that one cannot be Christian and believe Evolution. (I certainly maintain I do both! .. but his definition of Christian is also more narrow than mine). They have literally written an entire alternate reality that permeates everything. It is perpetuated in fundamentalist schools and among home schoolers.

We have to take this seriously. I don't know if you are a parent, but MY Kids, right now, are dealing with this issue. Three churches, including the one with the MOST dynamic program for kids promote Scientific Creationism. (FUN stuff .. ... they get huge donations and can put on almost a party evey week.. our "boring" Protestant and Roman Catholic church are having a hard time competing). My kid are not your kids. Your neighbors kids are not your kid. BUT, they will grow up to vote. Do you know how close Palin came to being Vice President? She is an ardant Creationist.

This is not a movement we can simply dismiss. BUT, I will say this. We MUST challange it with respect and facts. Name calling and sarcasm (and believe me, it is tempting ... I have slipped into it myself) just won't bridget his huge communication gap.

I said earlier, but will repeat that a large part of this discussion has moved over to the Real University. Right now, it has reached a partial standstill. I invite anyone .. no matter your perspective, to join. (this is by no means the only topic... anything is acceptable!). Right now, I am less concerned with convincing anyone of right or wrong. Right now, I am most concerned with simply understaning. Because, too often we are simply using words in differant ways.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:56 pm

The number of people believing this nonsense is larger than I'd thought before moving to the U.S.A.
For some alarming trends and statistics, go read "Have a nice Doomsday". I'll tell you who it's by when I stumble across my copy again.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Artimis on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:34 pm

It completely bemuses me how anyone can claim that belief in the accuracy of evolution as a theory and the belief that God exists and created everything are mutually exclusive. Belief in God creating everything does not preclude God 'using' evolution as a tool to create the variety of life that we see here today. Why does it matter if the Earth is more than a few thousand years old? I should think that the belief that God created all is more important than God did it quickly.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby a.sub on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:30 pm

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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Frigidus on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:33 pm



Ugh. I'd really like to see demographics by state on that, because I can't...oh, god...that is horrible.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby a.sub on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:43 pm

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/08 ... ast-w.html
thats an international poll of how many people believe in creationism
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Frigidus on Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:05 pm

I think the title says it all: "Well, at least we beat Turkey".

6% of people actually disagreed with "Over periods of millions of years, some species of plants and animals adjust and survive while other species die and become extinct". Really? You don't believe that species become extinct? Or just that plants and animals never adjust, ever. Never mind that humans look different, we never change.

But the worst part was that 62% of the people agreed that "Human beings were created by God as whole persons and did not evolve from earlier forms of life" was true and 40% agreed that "Human beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals". At a minimum, 2% agreed with both of those statements. This means that at least 2% of the population is made up of stumbling, shit chucking, stupids. How depressing.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Frigidus on Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:21 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNi087bVVMY&feature=related

Also of concern, found this off the comments section of that article. I think these are the same 20% of people in the "don't know" tract of evolution. It's less don't know and more don't give a f*ck is my guess.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:34 am



So..Bush is what God meant to create?

Do we get to vote on who gets to be god next time around?
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby a.sub on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:15 am

my friend sent me this
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby MeDeFe on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:04 am

a.sub wrote:my friend sent me this
Click image to enlarge.
image

You can't link to pictures on 4chan, you have to save them and upload them to imageshack or photobucket or something.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Artimis on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:05 am



If they want to teach creationism in schools, then let them do it under the banner of R.E.(Religious Education) But I find it insulting to my intelligence that they want to teach it along side evolution as a 'science'. It is not science, never was and never will be.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Frigidus on Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:51 am

Artimis wrote:


If they want to teach creationism in schools, then let them do it under the banner of R.E.(Religious Education) But I find it insulting to my intelligence that they want to teach it along side evolution as a 'science'. It is not science, never was and never will be.


Exactly. It's not like the Bible is some sort of alternative to established, documented scientific theories. How exactly do you teach creationism in science? Read Genesis? Say "others feel that God did it, and that science is some anti-Christian conspiracy"? It's ridiculous, you can't expound on something with no factual evidence backing it up. Plus, on a more personal level, I have a lot of non-Christian friends who, like me, would pretty much be arguing every point made.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:07 pm

Frigidus wrote:
Artimis wrote:


If they want to teach creationism in schools, then let them do it under the banner of R.E.(Religious Education) But I find it insulting to my intelligence that they want to teach it along side evolution as a 'science'. It is not science, never was and never will be.


Exactly. It's not like the Bible is some sort of alternative to established, documented scientific theories. How exactly do you teach creationism in science? Read Genesis? Say "others feel that God did it, and that science is some anti-Christian conspiracy"? It's ridiculous, you can't expound on something with no factual evidence backing it up. Plus, on a more personal level, I have a lot of non-Christian friends who, like me, would pretty much be arguing every point made.

Widowmakers first few pages are pretty lengthy. Try this ... you can get the gist in a quick peak.

http://www.creationstudies.org


And again, 25% of the George W. Bush administration, Sarah Palin ...and many, many others fully believe this ...and think it is MORE scientific than Evolution.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:56 pm

Hmm - they seem to favour an expanding universe (created as already expanding of course). Quite how galaxies that are millions of light-years away (and whose light has taken millions of years to reach us) accord with a creation a few thousand years ago, I fail to understand.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Artimis on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:00 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Hmm - they seem to favour an expanding universe (created as already expanding of course). Quite how galaxies that are millions of light-years away (and whose light has taken millions of years to reach us) accord with a creation a few thousand years ago, I fail to understand.


I guess logic is not their strong suit. But it's not a science so logic is not required. :)
Last edited by Artimis on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:03 pm

Well, that's the whole point - they're claiming it is (a) science, and can be debated at that level.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Juan_Bottom on Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:25 pm

Even einstien's theory of gravity, that massive objects bend space and time, and the subsequent space pushes the object, which counters newton's explanation of gravity works mathematically, but still takes a leap of faith...and isnt fully proven, beyond the fact that the equations to work.

I think "leap" is too strong of a word. If that's a leap then creationism requires a spaceship to get to.
That is all.


Frigidus wrote:Plus, on a more personal level, I have a lot of non-Christian friends who, like me, would pretty much be arguing every point made.

Welcome to me getting booted from Sunday School.
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:30 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Hmm - they seem to favour an expanding universe (created as already expanding of course). Quite how galaxies that are millions of light-years away (and whose light has taken millions of years to reach us) accord with a creation a few thousand years ago, I fail to understand.

:lol:


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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby Bavarian Raven on Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:12 pm

having read that link above...


Teaching is a ministry for men and women of faith.


and so the horrors of unlearning begins....

that premise actually precludes the possibility of carbon-based life anywhere else in the universe, but that argument aside, we already know that the environment on Mars is not suitable for life of any kind, so the only option here is fossils of bacterial life forms.



whos to say that martian life needs the same conditions earth life does?

The real issue at hand is the actual impossibility of life spontaneously generating itself from non-living materials. I can tell you from my 30 plus years in the Kingdom two things.

1) Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah who came according to the Scriptures, died and was raised from the dead on the third day for the forgiveness of sins, according to Scriptures.

2) Nothing will be discovered that will in any way contradict or nullify God’s Holy Word. The Living Word of God, Messiah Jesus, is THE Truth and the written Word of God is also THE Truth. He, and therefore His written revelation are completely trustworthy.


now there is some good scientific support for your cause if i ever heard it. i have never heard of a better fact based rebutle in my life. [/sarcasm]
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Re: Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:40 pm

well, this is exactly the point. A scientist devises a theory to cover the facts as he/she knows them. Then the theory is tested - specifically in situations which will show whether the theory covers a few more facts or needs refining. If the theory falls short, it's time to get a thinking cap on and refine it.
A creationist "knows " the truth before they start, ignores anything tending to contradict what they know, ignores or distorts awkward findings, and never changes their theory. Since it is obviously true and needs no proof.
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