Map Preferences - read before you vote

[WidowMakers]

I should have put this in my first post. I feel that maps of real places are better accepted that others. They have a realness to them because they are real. The players have a better idea of how the world is mapped out. That is why classic, NA, Brazil, World 2.0, etc do so well. A player does not need to discover what they are looking at because we all live in places from some of these maps.

Next the fantasy maps from movies/games/books. These maps are closer to reality in that they are described in stories that many people hold dear. These maps represent a physical place (CCU, Tamriel, middle earth) However, less people understand the context of a fantasy map when compared to a real life map.

Then comes the abstract maps. I am not saying these maps are bad. They are just harder to accept because lots of people do not have a frame of reference as to why or how to go about fighting on a crossword puzzle or a Connect 4 board (I do like Conquer 4!!). Just making up an abstract map with no history is hard because people want to understand and feel interested in the map they are playing. (I am a fan of abstract. I have several ideas myself. The issue is getting the majority of people on your side and letting them understand your ideas so they will say "now I get it" instead of "that is dumb")

[DiM]

can i just say that this is a really dumb thread?

I hope that the maps that get through the foundry these days have everything - solid graphics, well-conceived gameplay, and a hook to get people to play it in the first place. To suggest that one element is more important than the other suggests we should start approving maps based on just one criteria, which I think should not be the case. Rather, I've seen maps abandoned for lack of good game play, for poor graphics, and for lack of a good theme that sparks interest... that's the way it should be.

As for developing maps in phases, there's something to be said for seeing what tools a map developer has from the start. Before the foundry faithful spend weeks hammering out the details of a great idea it would be nice to know that the developer won't be trying to create the final map on KidPix.

Likewise, if I start a project and it either looks like crap or it's on a theme that nobody wants to play, I hope people tell me early on.

oaktown, this thread is not dumb, i just want to know what people like. i get frustrated to see that 80% of people like gameplay and graphics and only 8% want theme and yet my bill of rights map gets criticised because of the theme. i wanted to understand the users but this poll made me even more confused. most people agree my map has good graphics and good gameplay and yet i only see posts that the theme is bad.


edit// i never suggested that some aspects should be overlooked, ofcourse the maps need to be good in every aspect.

[Guiscard]

The problem is you can't just put all this down to a poll. ALL of the factors are very important. That's why the thread is dumb.

With a new car, most people will want a good reliable model that works well. That is their main priority in looking for a car, just as playability is most important for a map.

HOWEVER if you were to say to someone 'you should buy this really really ugly car with bright pink leather seats and a sharks fin on the roof. It is reliable, economical, has a nice engine...' then they'd tell you where to go. People are also looking for an attractive car made by a manufacturer they like the sound of, or the reputation... In a map people want a good theme and nice graphics as well.

You wouldn't buy a car with a good engine but a horrible body, and you wouldn't buy a beautiful car which had a horrible engine that made it impossible to drive.

Stop trying to pin map making down to one quality. All maps need to be completely perfect in all areas to pass the foundry anyway. You can't just disregard people's complaints about one are because they vote for another as the most important. The theme is a vital part of the map. In my opinion, it is the most important aspect in attracting people to play the map in the first place. It took me many months to try Brazil because it was a theme I wasn't too concerned about, and I've never tried Crossword for the same reason. I have no wish to play on a crossword map, just as many would have no wish to play across scraps of paper however beautiful the graphics are. Map making is a very complex process and everyone has had some failures, as well as having to make some serious adaptations. Look at Keyogi's idea for Russian Roulette for a recent example of a top cartographer who can get it wrong in the initial stages (no offence).

[KEYOGI]

Guiscard knocked that one on the head. I was just about to post the same sort of comment, minus the shark fins.

[Guiscard]

Now I've started thinking about it... that could catch on....

Watch out for the shark car cruising the streets...

[DiM]

The problem is you can't just put all this down to a poll. ALL of the factors are very important. That's why the thread is dumb.

With a new car, most people will want a good reliable model that works well. That is their main priority in looking for a car, just as playability is most important for a map.

HOWEVER if you were to say to someone 'you should buy this really really ugly car with bright pink leather seats and a sharks fin on the roof. It is reliable, economical, has a nice engine...' then they'd tell you where to go. People are also looking for an attractive car made by a manufacturer they like the sound of, or the reputation... In a map people want a good theme and nice graphics as well.

You wouldn't buy a car with a good engine but a horrible body, and you wouldn't buy a beautiful car which had a horrible engine that made it impossible to drive.

Stop trying to pin map making down to one quality. All maps need to be completely perfect in all areas to pass the foundry anyway. You can't just disregard people's complaints about one are because they vote for another as the most important. The theme is a vital part of the map. In my opinion, it is the most important aspect in attracting people to play the map in the first place. It took me many months to try Brazil because it was a theme I wasn't too concerned about, and I've never tried Crossword for the same reason. I have no wish to play on a crossword map, just as many would have no wish to play across scraps of paper however beautiful the graphics are. Map making is a very complex process and everyone has had some failures, as well as having to make some serious adaptations. Look at Keyogi's idea for Russian Roulette for a recent example of a top cartographer who can get it wrong in the initial stages (no offence).

i already said all aspects are important but let's face it some are more important than others. a beautiful map with zero gameplay will probably be played once while a great gameplay map with horrible graphics will never be played. but not playing a map because it has a poor theme even if it has good graphics and gameplay, this i don't understand.

let's say i make an area 51 map. nice theme i bet it will catch on really good, but the graphics will be done at 50% of my capabilities and the gameplay will have nothing special about it. i'm sure people will enjoy it more than the bill of rights just because i'll put a dead alien and an ufo somewhere in the background. this is what i don't understand.

and i don't agree with this kind of attitude, making something commercial just isn't my style, sacrificing art for money really sucks. (i'm not creating art and i'm not making money but you get the idea )

[XenHu]

Gameplay..

It doesn't matter if the map has graphics equivalent to Gears Of War. If the gameplay is shit, so is the map..


-X

[Guiscard]

If any element is shit so is the map. That's the point. Gameplay, Theme, Graphics, whatever.

Also, DIM, you seem to disregard the fact that the map actually has to pass through the foundry itself. You wouldn't be able to make an Are 51 map with sub-standard graphics and rubbish gameplay because me and Keyogi would jump down your throat about graphics and Marv would beat your ass about gameplay. That's the point of the foundry.

Don't whine because people don't like the theme. it doesn't mean they don't care about gameplay. It means they DON'T LIKE THE THEME! Every aspect needs to be perfect and in the case of your map one aspect wasn't. Gameplay usually comes later anyway, unless it has fundamental problems at the start. The point of the foundry is to create maps which are perfect in every regard.

You are not creating something commercial, you are creating something people will play. I for one won't play a map with a boring theme (e.g. crossword) just as I won't play a really nice looking map with bad gameplay (circus maximus perhaps).

Seriously, don't take criticism so much to heart. You can't avoid it, and we don't want another Qwert on our hands do we...

[DiM]

If any element is shit so is the map. That's the point. Gameplay, Theme, Graphics, whatever.

Also, DIM, you seem to disregard the fact that the map actually has to pass through the foundry itself. You wouldn't be able to make an Are 51 map with sub-standard graphics and rubbish gameplay because me and Keyogi would jump down your throat about graphics and Marv would beat your ass about gameplay. That's the point of the foundry.

Don't whine because people don't like the theme. it doesn't mean they don't care about gameplay. It means they DON'T LIKE THE THEME! Every aspect needs to be perfect and in the case of your map one aspect wasn't. Gameplay usually comes later anyway, unless it has fundamental problems at the start. The point of the foundry is to create maps which are perfect in every regard.

You are not creating something commercial, you are creating something people will play. I for one won't play a map with a boring theme (e.g. crossword) just as I won't play a really nice looking map with bad gameplay (circus maximus perhaps).

Seriously, don't take criticism so much to heart. You can't avoid it, and we don't want another Qwert on our hands do we...

i'm not whining about anything. maybe i'm just too tired (lots of work + school + training + little sleep = me being grumpy).
anyway i think i'll leave the bill of rights/parchment/pirate map for now. i'll let it rest for a while. i don't have the power right now to start modyfing it. i have over 500 layers to go through and edit and this takes loads of time.
right now i think i'll relax with a map of the moon or maybe some zodiac thing.

[WidowMakers]

i already said all aspects are important but let's face it some are more important than others. a beautiful map with zero gameplay will probably be played once while a great gameplay map with horrible graphics will never be played.

but not playing a map because it has a poor theme even if it has good graphics and gameplay, this i don't understand.

I don't think people would stay away from a map whith good gameplay and bad theme once they played it. People are drawn to a map by theme and graphics, but they stay because of gameplay. Brazil is a good example. It looks like crap but lots od players say that it is one of their favorites.

If you could theme a game on Star Wars and make it look like ILM made the map, everyone would play it. But if they found that it was too easy to control a certain aspect and win, the map would be lopsided and boring because of its predictability. Then no one would play.

All maps should have good gameplay. All maps should have good graphics (the type of graphics are even up to personal opinion). But the theme of a map may be good to one and boring to another.

Theme/Graphics = Instant Appeal

Gameplay = Lasting Appeal

Both are good but lasting appeal, in my opinion, is the best.

[DiM]

i already said all aspects are important but let's face it some are more important than others. a beautiful map with zero gameplay will probably be played once while a great gameplay map with horrible graphics will never be played.

but not playing a map because it has a poor theme even if it has good graphics and gameplay, this i don't understand.

I don't think people would stay away from a map whith good gameplay and bad theme once they played it. People are drawn to a map by theme and graphics, but they stay because of gameplay. Brazil is a good example. It looks like crap but lots od players say that it is one of their favorites.

If you could theme a game on Star Wars and make it look like ILM made the map, everyone would play it. But if they found that it was too easy to control a certain aspect and win, the map would be lopsided and boring because of its predictability. Then no one would play.

All maps should have good gameplay. All maps should have good graphics (the type of graphics are even up to personal opinion). But the theme of a map may be good to one and boring to another.

Theme/Graphics = Instant Appeal

Gameplay = Lasting Appeal

Both are good but lasting appeal, in my opinion, is the best.

let's talk about the bill of rights.

graphics. it must be good since nobody is complaining
gameplay. it has been improved and nobody posted any suggestions. hence i understand the gameplay is also good.
theme. it has a theme. some like it but most don't.

and yet i get posts like this:

"i won't play it"


what should i understand from this? is the map good? is it bad? is it at least promising?

i want feedback i want opinions, suggestions, i want communication.
if people just say it's not good i won't be able to make it better. and i've seen this attitude on lots of threads.

you don't like a map, no problem say what modifications you want, afterall maybe someday you'll play on that map and you'll regret you did not suggest an idea.

[WidowMakers]

I guess what I am saying is that if it makes people say what the heck is this map about and does it make sense to me. '

I personally like th egraphics and gameplay can always be adjusted (boaders, bonus, etc). But the theme. I don't understan why we are fighting over poritons of a ripped Bill of Rights. I like the priate treasure idea. It makes more sense.

If this map gets made and stays the Bill of Rights, I would play it. I fi found that there was decent gameplay for the style of play I like, I would keep playing it. However, all of the other people out there might not make that same choice. They might say "I don't get it" and never give it a chance.

Like I said before
Theme/Graphics = Instant Appeal

Gameplay = Lasting Appeal

We need to hook people in with theme/graphics. And make them stay with Gameplay.

[KEYOGI]

Regarding the Bill of Rights.

Graphics
Pre-pirate update... it looks nice enough and it's a different visual style to anything we currently have on the site. Having said that though, I'm not really a fan. Did you draw the magnifying glass and feather? It looks like you've copied them from somewhere and dropped them on the page. Then there's the fact that they're blurry. Just does nothing for me, personally.

Gameplay
To be honest, I can't focus on the gameplay because the look of the map is a distraction. I can't look at the map straight away and get a good idea of the territories and borders. I really think that's an important point.

Theme
Bill of rights... I could care less really. Torn up paper in any fashion isn't going to get much of my interest. I like the pirate theme though, perhaps just start from scratch and have a pirates treasure map. You could base it on a real life pirate hotspot or you could probably get away with making it up. Having lots of islands will work well.

As for the lack of communication, I understand it to be either a lack of interest in the map or that people don't think you can do anymore to improve it. You've got to be patient though, leave a couple of days between sessions. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[oaktown]

i get frustrated to see that 80% of people like gameplay and graphics and only 8% want theme and yet my bill of rights map gets criticised because of the theme. i wanted to understand the users but this poll made me even more confused. most people agree my map has good graphics and good gameplay and yet i only see posts that the theme is bad.

that's exactly my point DiM - while people might say that gameplay is most important, that doesn't mean a map is going to mvoe forward if that's all it has. People want everything.

A more valuable way to understand users would be to have three polls.
1. Is gameplay important to you? yes/no
2. Are graphics important to you? yes/no
3. Is the central theme important to you? yes/no

I bet all come out 95% yes.

[DiM]

Regarding the Bill of Rights.

Graphics
Pre-pirate update... it looks nice enough and it's a different visual style to anything we currently have on the site. Having said that though, I'm not really a fan. Did you draw the magnifying glass and feather? It looks like you've copied them from somewhere and dropped them on the page. Then there's the fact that they're blurry. Just does nothing for me, personally.

blurry, noted, will improve.

Gameplay
To be honest, I can't focus on the gameplay because the look of the map is a distraction. I can't look at the map straight away and get a good idea of the territories and borders. I really think that's an important point.

what do you mean a distraction? pin point the problem please.

Theme
Bill of rights... I could care less really. Torn up paper in any fashion isn't going to get much of my interest. I like the pirate theme though, perhaps just start from scratch and have a pirates treasure map. You could base it on a real life pirate hotspot or you could probably get away with making it up. Having lots of islands will work well.

the problem is i don't really want a pirate theme. and if i'm not 100% interested the map won't be good because i won't be able to dedicate to the map.

As for the lack of communication, I understand it to be either a lack of interest in the map or that people don't think you can do anymore to improve it. You've got to be patient though, leave a couple of days between sessions. Rome wasn't built in a day.

the problem is i have lots of ideas (~20) that i want to make. i don't want to spend 2-3 months on each because i'll grow old and die

[KEYOGI]

what do you mean a distraction? pin point the problem please.

The map is quite busy. There's lots of text overlapping. The objects between the pieces of paper draw your attention away from the actual map. The font's nice, but it's too hard to read.

If you don't want to make a pirate map then don't do it. It's your map making time, spend it how you want to. But just because you have 20 ideas floating in your head doesn't mean they're all going to be made into maps. I've probably had a similar number of maps I've thought about and even started to make only to realise the idea was no good before I even got it to a stage where I would put it before the foundry. I've got some great ideas I'd love to set in motion, but I'm in no rush to start them. And no, Conquer 4 wasn't one of my great ideas, but the concept behind the gameplay was.

Just don't rush it, these things take time and your maps will benefit from a more relaxed approach.

[Molacole]

Gameplay..

It doesn't matter if the map has graphics equivalent to Gears Of War. If the gameplay is shit, so is the map..


-X

I don't think people would stay away from a map whith good gameplay and bad theme once they played it. People are drawn to a map by theme and graphics, but they stay because of gameplay. Brazil is a good example. It looks like crap but lots od players say that it is one of their favorites.

If you could theme a game on Star Wars and make it look like ILM made the map, everyone would play it. But if they found that it was too easy to control a certain aspect and win, the map would be lopsided and boring because of its predictability. Then no one would play.

All maps should have good gameplay. All maps should have good graphics (the type of graphics are even up to personal opinion). But the theme of a map may be good to one and boring to another.

Theme/Graphics = Instant Appeal

Gameplay = Lasting Appeal

Both are good but lasting appeal, in my opinion, is the best.

^That basically sums up the truth about any and every game out there. Very good post...

The way I see it is you're going to have to decide which audience you want to capture...

Some people play RISK on this site because the maps look pretty and they don't take winnning or losing serious enough to understand the complexity of a truely great map in terms of playability.

Other people will play the map for playability over everything else and spend most their time playing maps that lack theme and graphics for an exchange in game play. Those people usually tend to be the more competitive style player who enjoys a good game of conquering territories and controlling the map.

You also have people who play maps that they feel most comfortable in and can really understand the map completely so they feel comfortable playing it and usually tend to excell in this enviroment by mastering their favorites.


The best maps I've seen made in the foundry are the ones that come right out of the gate with a conquer a territory, hold a bonus feel to it. I've seen some pretty good looking maps being made that I took one look at and knew I'd only play it once or twice just for the hell of it.

My best advice to anyone making a map is to really focus on would people want to play a game of WAR on this type of "picture"... As far as I'm concerned that's what it comes down to mostly so yeah theme is very important WHEN people can relate to a game of war being played in that scenario.


so basically the reason I think the parchment might be getting a lack of support is because it doesn't really have the feel of war to the map. It definitely isn't lack of playabilty or graphics and the theme isn't bad... I know it's the reason I don't personally see myself playing it.

So all in all I would say playability on a map that can promote an enviroment of war, with excellent graphics and a very good theme is the best way to go...

[WidowMakers]

So all in all I would say playability on a map that can promote an enviroment of war, with excellent graphics and a very good theme is the best way to go...

YES!!!!!!!!!

[DiM]

what do you mean a distraction? pin point the problem please.

The map is quite busy. There's lots of text overlapping. The objects between the pieces of paper draw your attention away from the actual map. The font's nice, but it's too hard to read.

If you don't want to make a pirate map then don't do it. It's your map making time, spend it how you want to. But just because you have 20 ideas floating in your head doesn't mean they're all going to be made into maps. I've probably had a similar number of maps I've thought about and even started to make only to realise the idea was no good before I even got it to a stage where I would put it before the foundry. I've got some great ideas I'd love to set in motion, but I'm in no rush to start them. And no, Conquer 4 wasn't one of my great ideas, but the concept behind the gameplay was.

Just don't rush it, these things take time and your maps will benefit from a more relaxed approach.

yeah i agree the map is full of things but i thought that's just what makes it interesting. lots of text and objects simulate a wiseman's desk. or at least that's what i think.

anyway i started the pirete map after trying to make a tooth cavities map
i sorta enjoy it. but i'll leave to work now. i'll finish it tomorrow. (i posted the sketch in the bill of rights thread.

[Nukora]

Gameplay but also theme.