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/ wrote:Assisted suicide, perhaps, but even that is against the classic Hippocratic Oath, I see no reason for doctors to be involved. But I see no reason to allow one to decide to end anothers "suffering" without consultation or a pre-writen will.
The family member's prefer they be rotting in a box rather than rotting in a bed? Why does it matter? If they have decided they don't want to see them anymore they can just stop visiting.
If they are brain dead and have no thoughts to give on the matter? If they are brain dead, why is their "suffering" any more relevant than their "rights", they can no longer function with the capacity one considers a "person", is it our duty to "mercy kill" every random creature others debate have a fighting chance?
People have woken up from the most ridiculous injuries/comas, if they were counting on their doctor to give them a chance at luck, that may be considerable.
It's another thing if their treatment puts others with better chances at risk (IE: an under-supplied war zone, patients who need organs direly, or the like) but such situations can be evaluated by case in relation to the Hippocratic Oath in my opinion.



Symmetry wrote:If I can ask, how much faith do you place in the Hippocratic oath? And how far do you take its meaning?
Harm, of course, can be described in a lot of different ways.
Edit: Sorry, that was a really interesting post, should have said that first.



























Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.
Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.



Symmetry wrote:Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.
Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.
If you swore an oath, how much weight would it carry?






















Army of GOD wrote:Symmetry wrote:Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.
Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.
If you swore an oath, how much weight would it carry?
None, at least I don't think any.
I'm trying to think of oaths that I've taken and held vehemently. I can't reamember any other like an honor society, but none of those carry any weight currently.
If I was a doctor and a patient I knew and trusted wished to be euthanized, I would go ahead with it. There are a lot of "what ifs", but in general (remember, this is someone I trusted), I would go through with it. A big reason is because if I was in tremendous pain and wished to be euthanized, I would hope that the person I asked would do it too. And death isn't something I easily accept, so that's pretty big.

























Army of GOD wrote:Hm, but I guess that example allows me to communicate that I want to die or not.
If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.



Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.
Army of GOD wrote:If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.





/ wrote:Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.
I'm sure there are plenty of groups that would foot the bill, and even give extended donations directly to the family, though it would prevent them from obtaining any life insurance money.Army of GOD wrote:If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.
For some reason, I would have the opposite viewpoint, despite the phobia I have of ever being trapped in my own nightmares without being able to wake up, I would still prefer my default as letting me play my luck and hoping I recover one day.
I suppose it's that kind of important thing one should really make as clear as legally possible.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... ennys-will



Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.
I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.





/ wrote:Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.
I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.
A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?



/ wrote:Assisted suicide, perhaps, but even that is against the classic Hippocratic Oath, I see no reason for doctors to be involved. But I see no reason to allow one to decide to end anothers "suffering" without consultation or a pre-writen will.
/ wrote:The family member's prefer they be rotting in a box rather than rotting in a bed? Why does it matter? If they have decided they don't want to see them anymore they can just stop visiting.
If they are brain dead and have no thoughts to give on the matter? If they are brain dead, why is their "suffering" any more relevant than their "rights", they can no longer function with the capacity one considers a "person", is it our duty to "mercy kill" every random creature others debate have a fighting chance?












Army of GOD wrote:FOS /












everywhere116 wrote:You da man! Well, not really, because we're colorful ponies, but you get the idea.






everywhere116 wrote:You da man! Well, not really, because we're colorful ponies, but you get the idea.






Haggis_McMutton wrote:Night Strike wrote:Capital punishment is not murder because the person dying is not innocent of a crime. The state has the power to punish crimes, which is the job they're actually tasked with doing. Supporting a small government means you DO institute a system that makes sure that people who take away the rights of others are punished. Plus, capital punishment is actually allowed for in the Constitution itself (specifically for treason, not even for killing another person). The 12 jurors are following due process as the Constitution outlines. The murderer is not. And the abortioner is not either.
Basically you are saying:
I don't trust the state to run my pension fund.
I don't trust the state to provide me with healthcare.
I don't trust the state to help me fund my education.
However, I do trust the state to correctly determine whether I should be killed or not.
---
Anyway, about euthanasia.
Do you oppose it solely for religious reasons?




















riskllama wrote:Koolbak wins this thread.





















Night Strike wrote:
My stats are an over-simplification to prove a point. It's probably closer to 99.9%. And no innocent person should be killed, whether they are unborn, going about their normal day, or wrongly convicted of a crime. That's why we have a judicial process that gets better on a daily basis: to make sure the correct people are convicted. However, I do know that a supporter of abortion supports killing an innocent human every time an abortion is committed.



Night Strike wrote:When society condones the aborting of the unborn, it makes it very easy to justify the aborting of the previously born. Welcome to the eugenics movement of the early 20th century progressives.
















shieldgenerator7 wrote:
This brings up another question: do most poeple decide for euthenasia because they want attention or are just sick of living?
















Symmetry wrote:/ wrote:Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.
I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.
A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?
The short answer is that I agree, but the longer answer is that I'm not sure how and where the line should be drawn. The easy cases are informed consent. The most difficult- vegetative states with no indication of consent, perhaps even opposition to euthanasia.
I don't think there can be default legality on these issues. My personal hope is that doctors work together on these decisions, Pool expertise. Naive as it may sound, but I hold the hippocratic oath in fairly high regard. A doctor who is willing to help euthanise a patient needs more than legal immunity, he or she needs other doctors.
















PLAYER57832 wrote:Symmetry wrote:/ wrote:Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.
I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.
A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?
The short answer is that I agree, but the longer answer is that I'm not sure how and where the line should be drawn. The easy cases are informed consent. The most difficult- vegetative states with no indication of consent, perhaps even opposition to euthanasia.
I don't think there can be default legality on these issues. My personal hope is that doctors work together on these decisions, Pool expertise. Naive as it may sound, but I hold the hippocratic oath in fairly high regard. A doctor who is willing to help euthanise a patient needs more than legal immunity, he or she needs other doctors.
This is the best choice.
Most larger hospitals have medical ethicists on staff. Ideally any such termination decision is made in combination with the family, clergy as well as doctors and even hospital administrators/legal experts. (those last typically are not involved in the actual decision, just in making sure that rules are followed and so forth). If family is not available, then there are advocates who step in to take over. (social workers,etc.).



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