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Legalizing euthanasia

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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby / on Fri May 11, 2012 12:33 am

Assisted suicide, perhaps, but even that is against the classic Hippocratic Oath, I see no reason for doctors to be involved. But I see no reason to allow one to decide to end anothers "suffering" without consultation or a pre-writen will.
The family member's prefer they be rotting in a box rather than rotting in a bed? Why does it matter? If they have decided they don't want to see them anymore they can just stop visiting.
If they are brain dead and have no thoughts to give on the matter? If they are brain dead, why is their "suffering" any more relevant than their "rights", they can no longer function with the capacity one considers a "person", is it our duty to "mercy kill" every random creature others debate have a fighting chance?
People have woken up from the most ridiculous injuries/comas, if they were counting on their doctor to give them a chance at luck, that may be considerable.
It's another thing if their treatment puts others with better chances at risk (IE: an under-supplied war zone, patients who need organs direly, or the like) but such situations can be evaluated by case in relation to the Hippocratic Oath in my opinion.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 12:36 am

/ wrote:Assisted suicide, perhaps, but even that is against the classic Hippocratic Oath, I see no reason for doctors to be involved. But I see no reason to allow one to decide to end anothers "suffering" without consultation or a pre-writen will.
The family member's prefer they be rotting in a box rather than rotting in a bed? Why does it matter? If they have decided they don't want to see them anymore they can just stop visiting.
If they are brain dead and have no thoughts to give on the matter? If they are brain dead, why is their "suffering" any more relevant than their "rights", they can no longer function with the capacity one considers a "person", is it our duty to "mercy kill" every random creature others debate have a fighting chance?
People have woken up from the most ridiculous injuries/comas, if they were counting on their doctor to give them a chance at luck, that may be considerable.
It's another thing if their treatment puts others with better chances at risk (IE: an under-supplied war zone, patients who need organs direly, or the like) but such situations can be evaluated by case in relation to the Hippocratic Oath in my opinion.


If I can ask, how much faith do you place in the Hippocratic oath? And how far do you take its meaning?

Harm, of course, can be described in a lot of different ways.

Edit: Sorry, that was a really interesting post, should have said that first.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby / on Fri May 11, 2012 12:50 am

Symmetry wrote:If I can ask, how much faith do you place in the Hippocratic oath? And how far do you take its meaning?

Harm, of course, can be described in a lot of different ways.

Edit: Sorry, that was a really interesting post, should have said that first.

Thanks.
I believe that doctors should live by a consistent moral code, the oath is a standard of such that reflects the popular reasoning on what such standards were for many ages, it has been updated, but it was extremely literal on this manner in the original Hippocrates draft,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
"I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion."
this was the standard for the time, if societies measure of a human's life changes, so does their variation of the oath, it needn't be universal and we needn't swear by Apollo, but a doctor always should do what they swear to accomplish.
Last edited by / on Fri May 11, 2012 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Army of GOD on Fri May 11, 2012 12:54 am

Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 12:59 am

Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.


If you swore an oath, how much weight would it carry?
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Army of GOD on Fri May 11, 2012 1:05 am

Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.


If you swore an oath, how much weight would it carry?


None, at least I don't think any.

I'm trying to think of oaths that I've taken and held vehemently. I can't reamember any other like an honor society, but none of those carry any weight currently.

If I was a doctor and a patient I knew and trusted wished to be euthanized, I would go ahead with it. There are a lot of "what ifs", but in general (remember, this is someone I trusted), I would go through with it. A big reason is because if I was in tremendous pain and wished to be euthanized, I would hope that the person I asked would do it too. And death isn't something I easily accept, so that's pretty big.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 1:10 am

Army of GOD wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath to me carries no weight.


If you swore an oath, how much weight would it carry?


None, at least I don't think any.

I'm trying to think of oaths that I've taken and held vehemently. I can't reamember any other like an honor society, but none of those carry any weight currently.

If I was a doctor and a patient I knew and trusted wished to be euthanized, I would go ahead with it. There are a lot of "what ifs", but in general (remember, this is someone I trusted), I would go through with it. A big reason is because if I was in tremendous pain and wished to be euthanized, I would hope that the person I asked would do it too. And death isn't something I easily accept, so that's pretty big.


You put that well, AoG. I agree, but I'd probably have been an ass putting it together. Nicely done.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Army of GOD on Fri May 11, 2012 1:21 am

Hm, but I guess that example allows me to communicate that I want to die or not.

If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 1:27 am

Army of GOD wrote:Hm, but I guess that example allows me to communicate that I want to die or not.

If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.


I'd rather have someone to talk to about that position without worrying that I'm gonna put them in prison for helping me. And I'd rather have any of my loved ones talk to me and trust me than make that decision alone.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby / on Fri May 11, 2012 1:40 am

Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

I'm sure there are plenty of groups that would foot the bill, and even give extended donations directly to the family, though it would prevent them from obtaining any life insurance money.
Army of GOD wrote:If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.

For some reason, I would have the opposite viewpoint, despite the phobia I have of ever being trapped in my own nightmares without being able to wake up, I would still prefer my default as letting me play my luck and hoping I recover one day.
I suppose it's that kind of important thing one should really make as clear as legally possible.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 1:54 am

/ wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:Doesn't the family also have to pay the hospital bill? I think that plays a part.

I'm sure there are plenty of groups that would foot the bill, and even give extended donations directly to the family, though it would prevent them from obtaining any life insurance money.
Army of GOD wrote:If I became a vegetable and have very little chance of recovering, I would rather be put to death than stay in a probably steady state of just staying alive. The financial and emotional burden wouldn't be nearly as bad if they just killed me than if they kept me alive.

For some reason, I would have the opposite viewpoint, despite the phobia I have of ever being trapped in my own nightmares without being able to wake up, I would still prefer my default as letting me play my luck and hoping I recover one day.
I suppose it's that kind of important thing one should really make as clear as legally possible.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... ennys-will


My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.

I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby / on Fri May 11, 2012 2:05 am

Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.

I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.

A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 2:13 am

/ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.

I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.

A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?


The short answer is that I agree, but the longer answer is that I'm not sure how and where the line should be drawn. The easy cases are informed consent. The most difficult- vegetative states with no indication of consent, perhaps even opposition to euthanasia.

I don't think there can be default legality on these issues. My personal hope is that doctors work together on these decisions, Pool expertise. Naive as it may sound, but I hold the hippocratic oath in fairly high regard. A doctor who is willing to help euthanise a patient needs more than legal immunity, he or she needs other doctors.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Fri May 11, 2012 2:20 am

/ wrote:Assisted suicide, perhaps, but even that is against the classic Hippocratic Oath, I see no reason for doctors to be involved. But I see no reason to allow one to decide to end anothers "suffering" without consultation or a pre-writen will.


Interesting take, but I'm not sure I see the use in adhering so literally to the Hippocratic Oath. Wouldn't it be better to define what a doctor should do based on some utility to the patient?

i.e. If it's some final stage of cancer that literally no one in medical history has survived and the patient is bedridden and in pain, what is the exact value in prolonging a patient's suffering for a couple of days ?

I mean, deciding to stop treatment and focus on *comfort* is already being done regularly afaik. I don't see why we have to pretend this isn't what it is.

/ wrote:The family member's prefer they be rotting in a box rather than rotting in a bed? Why does it matter? If they have decided they don't want to see them anymore they can just stop visiting.
If they are brain dead and have no thoughts to give on the matter? If they are brain dead, why is their "suffering" any more relevant than their "rights", they can no longer function with the capacity one considers a "person", is it our duty to "mercy kill" every random creature others debate have a fighting chance?

Well, theoretically you're right, but they'd have to be some pretty cold and unemotional people to be able to go by their business normally while daddy is lying comatose in a hospital bed.
If he is brain dead, I really don't see what's the point in keeping him "alive". I think it should only happen if the person/family expressly wanted it and paid for it.

I'd say it's not so much our duty to mercy kill as it is NOT our duty to prolong someone's existence to the bitter end if he/his family doesn't wish that.


In conclusion

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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Army of GOD on Fri May 11, 2012 2:29 am

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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Fri May 11, 2012 2:33 am

Army of GOD wrote:FOS /


AoG didn't bold or color his fos.

Modkill pl0x.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Fri May 11, 2012 8:44 am

AoG has been modkilled

AoG, Town Jester, has been modkilled


Deadline in 2 days.

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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby shieldgenerator7 on Fri May 11, 2012 8:52 am

Anyways, back on topic:

One of my fmaily members once became a vegetable, and had before told that he didn't want to live as a vegetable, so we cut him off, and honored him for his life. IDK, between living as a vegatble with a chance of waking up or being out to sleep: I think i'd choose to be cut off. If I can't think at all I'm practically dead anyways.

And about sending the brain dead to prison, haha I was falsely assumed the person in question was a troubled youth who wanted to end their life. That's reallyy the only case where this applies, when the person is perfectly alive but for some reason just wants to die.

I disagree about voting to kill someone, if you're family could vote to kill you it would be terrifying and everyone would be very paranoid not to upset someone. There'd have to be some kind of legal restrictions on this, so that they can't just to decide to vote off little johnie just because he's rude.

Also, have you guys seen "A Taste of Armegeddon" from Star Trek TOS? It applies here, as the people euthenize themselves "to perevent full out war"

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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Night Strike on Fri May 11, 2012 8:56 am

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Capital punishment is not murder because the person dying is not innocent of a crime. The state has the power to punish crimes, which is the job they're actually tasked with doing. Supporting a small government means you DO institute a system that makes sure that people who take away the rights of others are punished. Plus, capital punishment is actually allowed for in the Constitution itself (specifically for treason, not even for killing another person). The 12 jurors are following due process as the Constitution outlines. The murderer is not. And the abortioner is not either.


Basically you are saying:

I don't trust the state to run my pension fund.
I don't trust the state to provide me with healthcare.
I don't trust the state to help me fund my education.
However, I do trust the state to correctly determine whether I should be killed or not.

---

Anyway, about euthanasia.
Do you oppose it solely for religious reasons?


I oppose euthanasia because it's the taking of someone else's life without their consent. I think suicide and assisted suicide are reprehensible, but they should still be allowed. No one else should be able to choose whether or not you live or die in the hospital unless you have expressly given them that power (forgot what the legal term is).

And no, states should never run pensions or health care, and the federal government should not be involved in education (although state governments can). However, one of the express powers of the government is to protect every person's rights, which includes prosecuting those who violate someone else's rights. So yes, they are expected to correctly identify and prosecute criminals. And if their crimes are of a particularly heinous nature, the criminal should be put to death (although I would prefer it be done in the same way they committed the murder).
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby KoolBak on Fri May 11, 2012 10:42 am

Talk about Youth In Asia.....
"Gypsy told my fortune...she said that nothin showed...."

Neil Young....Like An Inca

AND:
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Fri May 11, 2012 11:53 am

Night Strike wrote:
My stats are an over-simplification to prove a point. It's probably closer to 99.9%. And no innocent person should be killed, whether they are unborn, going about their normal day, or wrongly convicted of a crime. That's why we have a judicial process that gets better on a daily basis: to make sure the correct people are convicted. However, I do know that a supporter of abortion supports killing an innocent human every time an abortion is committed.


Your stats are wrong, and you double down? Do you have a source I can look at?

You're not just making up your stats? Are you?

You are drawing them from a source?
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri May 11, 2012 2:46 pm

Night Strike wrote:When society condones the aborting of the unborn, it makes it very easy to justify the aborting of the previously born. Welcome to the eugenics movement of the early 20th century progressives.

You seem to think this is about weeding out genetic defects? Euthanasia is about living people, who , of their own free will, decide that they would rather die when God intends instead of being kept alive by machines humans have arrogantly invented.
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri May 11, 2012 3:11 pm

shieldgenerator7 wrote:
This brings up another question: do most poeple decide for euthenasia because they want attention or are just sick of living?

Most people who talk of euthanasia basically consider it an extension of the current "end of life"documents, things like living wills and such.

(note.. speaking of US laws here)

Right now, You can get what is called a "living will".. and I HIGHLY reccommend everyone do this. It lays out specific choices that YOU make, its revokable, so that if you change your mind, you can. (in fact, when it comes to ceasing certain kinds of care, this document alone is not legally binding, your loved ones have to agree.. but it can serve to give them an idea of what you would want, which can be very helpful). It might say something like "take all measures possible and available" or something more along the lines of if I am not able to respond and there is little brain activity, let me go naturally. It can also specify that you want to donate your organs, etc. (in some states, putting that on your driver's license is considered legal authorization, but in other states your next of kin would have to agree in the end.)

Anyway, there is Another document, one that ONLY comes into play when you are actually terminal.. usually given no more than 6 months to live, but in this, they tend to be pretty conservative. This usually won't include the "do everything"option, becuase that is basically the "default". Doctors WILL do everything unless you or your next of kin say otherwise. This one will say "keep feeding and hydration,but don't take aggressive measures and many other very,very specific choices (give oxeygen, but do not hook up to a respirator, for example). One of the choices, known to anyone with basically any kind of medical training is a "Do not ressucitate" Order, or a "DNR". This is allowed because a person will have already "died". Their lungs and heart have stopped working (note .. brain death is something different). The doctors are prevented from interfering with the natural process,are to allow the person to die. This is ONLY used in the very end stages, is pretty universal and is no longer very controversial.

In addition, some people, fully aware of the legalities, simply advise loved ones "not to call 911", given xyz. They know that medical technology today can keep them alive long past the point they consider really living. It is tricky and touchy at times. L oved ones can be prosecuted for not calling 911 in some cases. But...

Some people go further and will commit suicide when they get close to that point, before they are actually admitted to a hospital. To them, the idea of laying in a bed hooked up to a machine is just not life. They may be in pain, they may have cultural ideas, etc.

Euthanasia, as proposed carries this just a bit further. It says that in some circumstances, someone who is dying from Lou Gerhigs disease, perhaps Alzheimers, etc. may not be physically or mentally able to actually commit suicide. They want to live as long as they are able to function, but don't want to live past that point. This is where you sometimes hear of "assisted suicide". In most cases, in the US, it is firmly illegal. Whether you are prosecuted or not, though might depend on a lot of circumstances.


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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri May 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Symmetry wrote:
/ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.

I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.

A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?


The short answer is that I agree, but the longer answer is that I'm not sure how and where the line should be drawn. The easy cases are informed consent. The most difficult- vegetative states with no indication of consent, perhaps even opposition to euthanasia.

I don't think there can be default legality on these issues. My personal hope is that doctors work together on these decisions, Pool expertise. Naive as it may sound, but I hold the hippocratic oath in fairly high regard. A doctor who is willing to help euthanise a patient needs more than legal immunity, he or she needs other doctors.

This is the best choice.

Most larger hospitals have medical ethicists on staff. Ideally any such termination decision is made in combination with the family, clergy as well as doctors and even hospital administrators/legal experts. (those last typically are not involved in the actual decision, just in making sure that rules are followed and so forth). If family is not available, then there are advocates who step in to take over. (social workers,etc.).
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Re: Legalizing euthanasia

Postby Symmetry on Sat May 12, 2012 2:41 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
/ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:My personal take- every death is personal, and as cliched as that sounds, I take it to mean that people should get a say in their own deaths if they can. I can sympathise with your take on the oath, for example, but euthanasia isn't always a procedure performed by doctors. Hazarding a guess, I'd say it's a procedure performed more often by none-experts, and in the face of legal repercussions.

I'm all for people fighting till their last breath. I'm also all for people deciding how they want to die.

A fair neutral ground, I can agree with clear cases of assisted suicide, but under unclear circumstances, without the guidance of professional training or a document by the vegetative party, shouldn't there be a default legality on the matter? A clear line, is after all a typical trait of a law. Is the consent to decided by a spouse, the common vote of your friends, or is it a nursing home's right to off grandma because she has Alzheimer's disease?


The short answer is that I agree, but the longer answer is that I'm not sure how and where the line should be drawn. The easy cases are informed consent. The most difficult- vegetative states with no indication of consent, perhaps even opposition to euthanasia.

I don't think there can be default legality on these issues. My personal hope is that doctors work together on these decisions, Pool expertise. Naive as it may sound, but I hold the hippocratic oath in fairly high regard. A doctor who is willing to help euthanise a patient needs more than legal immunity, he or she needs other doctors.

This is the best choice.

Most larger hospitals have medical ethicists on staff. Ideally any such termination decision is made in combination with the family, clergy as well as doctors and even hospital administrators/legal experts. (those last typically are not involved in the actual decision, just in making sure that rules are followed and so forth). If family is not available, then there are advocates who step in to take over. (social workers,etc.).


I largely agree, although I obviously don't see the clerical role- most clergy are not medical experts, have a poor understanding of medical ethics, and have no expertise in law. And they're mostly men, with no expertise on women's health issues or background in secular sexuality and family planning.
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