jj3044 wrote:patches70 wrote:So, jj, are you advocating the end of Medicare and Medicaid? It appears that you are.
No, but both programs need massive reforms that neither side has the stones to tackle. It isn't all or nothing... government has a place, I just wish that the clowns that run it didn't put their own self-interest ahead of the people all the time.
I was just asking because I'm pretty sure it was you who said something to the effect of- "I'm tired of paying <through taxes> for medical costs of uninsured people".
The government doesn't pay those costs. They pay for Medicare and Medicaid (along with State governments), so those are definitely tax payer money going to paying for medical costs.
But being as Medicare is for the old who are unisurable through private insurance due to age and medical conditions (which is just how it is, as we get older we incurr greater and greater medical costs) and Medicaid for poor people who can't afford health insurance through private companies.
Neither of which I really have any major hang ups about. Something is wrong with a society that doesn't take care of it's elderly citizens and poor. Granted, both programs are state/federal programs and often times it puts a major burden on States, unfunded mandates/liabilities and such, but there is something else working against the system as well, which I'm not going to get into ATM.
If some guy goes to the hospital, has no insurance, Medicaid or Medicare and can't pay the bill, the government isn't on the hook for that. The guy is, it's a problem for him and the hospital. The hospital can garnish his wages to pay the bill and other such legal measures and the guy can always declare bankruptcy and get the medical bills wiped.
So who really pays such bills is people who
do have insurance and can pay. They have to pay more money.
So with that being understood, ACA wants everyone to participate in getting private insurance. That's the crux of the plan, everyone has to participate. If everyone has insurance then all the bills get paid then supposedly leading to no further increases or less increases in cost because hospitals don't have to eat any more unable to pay patients.
That's all fine and dandy, but there are still quite a few problems. Since you said you like the "direction" the ACA is leading, then I have to ask some questions-
1. If everyone has private insurance and is mandated by law to have it, then what need is there for Medicare and Medicaid anymore?
2. There is still the problem of the uninsurable, which at the stroke of the legislative pen have been made insurable. Those costs that are sure to be accumulated must be passed on to everyone else. That is the healthy pay for the sick. The young will be paying for the elderly and the young bear the greater cost. How is this any different or better than pre-ACA?
At least with the pre ACA the uninsurable could get on government programs at rates negotiated lower through the government. They are kept separate from the private sector who get actual fair premiums, or more fair than what the ACA offers.
3. If you are sick of having your tax dollars going to supposedly pay for the uninsured (which is a misrepresentation of sorts by you BTW*), then what about the poor who no matter what "deal" can be had on the government insurance markets can afford any type of premium at all, what about them? Just keep them on Medicaid which is exactly what you are supposedly sick of, the uninsured having their medical bills paid with taxpayer money.
4. Correct me if I am wrong, is it safe to say that you would prefer a single payer system over this abomination of legislation? If so, please explain how you would like to see that set up, if you would indulge me and forgive me if somewhere within this massive thread you have already done so, just point me to the post in that case.
5. Looking back just a little bit, if you actually mean this-
JJ wrote:Lip service, to me, means talking about something you don't know about and/or making promises that you absolutely can't keep. Is he a liar? Probably, but so is every other politician. I see no distinction between Obama, and most other politicians that do what they can to maintain power.
and it appears to me that through what I've seen of your posts in this thread, you've cited the supposed benefits from the ACA. These benefits as claimed by the very people who are liars. Why would you put any stock into such figures or promises? Is it that politicians may lie but so long as they are telling you lies you like to hear is ok?
I mean, to me I agree, politicians are liars and I trust them about as far as I can throw them. This includes those politician's political appointees who have a vested interest to go ahead and keep feeding the lies. The CBO is a classic example of an agency who just can't be trusted or taken seriously when they give their estimates because they are always so wrong. Especially when we look at how they actually calculate their estimates we can see exactly why they are so wrong so often.
When a Sebelius or even a Mr Obama comes out saying this praise and that praise citing this estimate and that estimate, knowing that they are certainly liars, why one wouldn't immediately say "Hold on a second" and just roll their eyes at them and their bullshit?
I'm not saying that their political opponents aren't spouting their own lines of bullshit, they certainly are as well.
I'm just curious as to your faith in this legislation which was passed half assed and by known liars.
But the real problems aren't even addressed in the slightest as to the rising health care costs. And those rising costs are predictable consequences of several factors, and the top of the list is not the uninsured. The absolute top of the list is monetary policy and the devaluing of our currency. The very currency which is used to pay for these medical procedures. When we devalue the very thing we use to pay for these very things (which by your own admission we all must use at one point or another) then the costs will keep on rising no matter what, so long as the monetary policies that cause the inflation continue.
But yes, there are certainly other things contributing to the rising costs, and all of which are just more icing on the already well frosted cake. Why monetary policy is so important is because even if you had the perfect system where everyone was insured somehow as what may be considered "affordable", it would so very soon get out of balance quickly as we continue to steal future wealth to pay for today's consumption and costs will keep on rising faster than people can afford to pay.
And since the politicians ignore this facet, and people remain mostly ignorant or oblivious to how money works, all our plans, promises and best intentions will continue to fail, cause more harm than good and eventually just collapse. And we will keep scratching our heads and wondering "How come these ideas aren't working like they are supposed to?"
As it always is with things built on foundations of sand.
*granted some tax money is lost as bills written off are likely tax deductible by hospitals leading to a slightly lower tax bill by the hospital, but that comes out to mere pennies on the dollar. For example for every $1,000 in lost payments the hospital can get a $10 tax break, I have no idea what the actual tax breaks would be, but that's pretty much how that usually works
