Post Any Evidence For God Here

[jonesthecurl]

"a taleTold by an idiot, full of sound and fury,signifying nothing".
Shakespeare.

[warmonger1981]

Sir Francis Bacon, a Mason, is believed to be the ghost writer for most of Shakespeare's writings.

[jonesthecurl]

Sir Francis Bacon, a Mason, is believed to be the ghost writer for most of Shakespeare's writings.

Or maybe the Earl of Oxford, as many believe.

[Dukasaur]

Sir Francis Bacon, a Mason, is believed to be the ghost writer for most of Shakespeare's writings.

Or maybe the Earl of Oxford, as many believe.

Or Christopher Marlowe, or half a dozen other candidates, all with no real evidence.

[betiko]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

[Dukasaur]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

That's actually one of the weaker arguments against god. You're thinking in human terms. We have finite resources, so we can't spend a lot of time and effort worrying about trivialities like the fate of one single anonymous protein molecule in our body.

If we were a being with infinite time and infinite ability, however, we wouldn't face these constraints. If you had infinite memory and infinite computing power, you could in fact track an infinite number of variables, and paying attention to the fate of a single isolated protein molecule would be no more and no less pressing than looking after the fate of the Andromeda galaxy.

I read a book once which postulated that god is our distant descendants, who have mastered space and time, are able to extract infinite energy from the future re-collapse of the universe, and have resurrected us out of a whimsical sense of nostalgia.

[patches70]

If Good was indeed the intention of a Dualistic God, then God would then not permit such evil to exist; but since evil and suffering do exist, then how can your God be Good? Perhaps God only pretends to be so.

But, but, how can one judge something "good" if there is nothing to compare it to? I.E., if there is no evil then there cannot be any good.


As the Arabs say, "All sunshine makes a desert".

But dude, it's all good, believe as you will. Just extend the same courtesy to others. So long as no one is harming others, it's best to let it be. Live and let live so the saying goes.


And-

God would then not permit such evil to exist

Quit telling God what to do!

Hahaha

[betiko]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

That's actually one of the weaker arguments against god. You're thinking in human terms. We have finite resources, so we can't spend a lot of time and effort worrying about trivialities like the fate of one single anonymous protein molecule in our body.

If we were a being with infinite time and infinite ability, however, we wouldn't face these constraints. If you had infinite memory and infinite computing power, you could in fact track an infinite number of variables, and paying attention to the fate of a single isolated protein molecule would be no more and no less pressing than looking after the fate of the Andromeda galaxy.

I read a book once which postulated that god is our distant descendants, who have mastered space and time, are able to extract infinite energy from the future re-collapse of the universe, and have resurrected us out of a whimsical sense of nostalgia.

if he is the creator, he isn't part of this universe most likely. and he most likely created an infinite amount of universes working with different physics. Given the fate of most species on our planet and the fate of our planet, in case he did it it's a scrap paper he whipes his ass with. Your life is still as insignifican as it can be, just imagine how you 200 000 year old specie is insignificant. Why would he give a shit?

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

[patches70]

Why would he give a shit?

I don't know. Does a painter give a shit about the paintings he creates?

Does the sculpture care about the statue he carves?

Does the master chef care about the dish he is preparing?

If God created the universe, then why wouldn't he care about his creation?

[Ray Rider]

I'm 24 and I've just been through 4 months of chemo + 1 month of radiation, the most recent side effect was an inability to eat solid food for 3 weeks; now it's 4:00 AM and I just left the bedside of my 10 month old niece who has spent over a month in the Pediatric Cardiac ICU after multiple heart surgeries. Obviously there's terrible pain, suffering, and evil in the world but that has never driven me to the belief that God is evil. I'm sorry that you feel the need to jump to that conclusion.

I am sorry to hear of yours and your niece's health problems, and my response is not meant to be insensitive or offensive, and since you are dualistic in your philosophy, I will respond in like.

Since your belief in God is that He/She is good and merciful (as such it seems since both you and your niece have gone through much suffering and survived), and that such belief is that God has created all things (God is all powerful, all knowing after all); then God, therefore, created the illnesses of which both your niece and yourself have suffered. To what ends? To enlighten you? To enlighten you for what?

If a dualistic God created the suffering and one of you had died from it, then what? Would you still think of it as a miracle? Perhaps it was just part of God's plan? What plan?!?

I or she may still die in the near future--she's still in ICU and I haven't received the result of the most recent PET/CT scan; in any case, we know that we will both die eventually. I don't claim a miracle has occurred, and whether either of us lives or dies has no bearing on the goodness of God. I don't need to see God's plan in order to trust Him. "...we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." Romans 5:3-4

For every miracle that Cult members believe happens in the world, I will show you a crocodile ripping apart a baby gazelle. Your faith is your crutch, and I do not fault you for it, and neither do I wish you to discontinue your belief in such. I just cannot adopt a belief in a Good God that permits evil and disease and suffering to perforate the world.

I find it interesting that you seem to believe a crocodile ripping apart a baby gazelle shows some defection in nature; from a naturalistic standpoint, that is perfectly normal. If you are saying that is not the way things should be, then you are admitting there is way things should be. Where are you obtaining this standard from? From a theistic standpoint, there is free will and therefore sin from which has sprung pain and suffering; this is to be expected in the world in which we live but will be rectified in the end.

Secondly, I'm curious what you mean about faith being a crutch. Do you mean that Jesus brings comfort and hope in difficult times? If so, then that's more of a reason to believe in Him then to disbelieve! Why turn from something/Someone that works! Or are you intimating the Freudian belief that God is simply a projection of a father figure in our lives that adults still desire after outgrowing their parents? I disagree, but then it cuts both ways, maybe you choose to disbelieve in God because you want to avoid such a father figure! Neither one actually proves or disproves God; it's just a red herring.

If Good was indeed the intention of a Dualistic God, then God would then not permit such evil to exist; but since evil and suffering do exist, then how can your God be Good? Perhaps God only pretends to be so.

You seem to believe that there is no possible morally sufficient reason for God to allow free will. Do you want Him to end all evil? Then you and I would be the first to go! I'm very thankful that he is willing to allow free will and bring good out of evil so that we may have the chance to choose to follow Him, rather than be robots doing His bidding or be zapped the second we think an evil thought. If God's plan is to create the conditions in which the largest number of people freely choose Him and eternal life through Him, then it would seem very difficult to do so in a world where there was no evil; in my personal life I found it is in the valleys of life that I am pushed closer to Him. On the mountaintops it is very easy to become proud of "my" achievements and forget about Him.

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

Sending His innocent Son to die for the sins of people who were still enemies of Him, allowing imperfect people into the presence of a holy God, is a pretty good indication that He cares. "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:7-8

[Dukasaur]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

That's actually one of the weaker arguments against god. You're thinking in human terms. We have finite resources, so we can't spend a lot of time and effort worrying about trivialities like the fate of one single anonymous protein molecule in our body.

If we were a being with infinite time and infinite ability, however, we wouldn't face these constraints. If you had infinite memory and infinite computing power, you could in fact track an infinite number of variables, and paying attention to the fate of a single isolated protein molecule would be no more and no less pressing than looking after the fate of the Andromeda galaxy.

I read a book once which postulated that god is our distant descendants, who have mastered space and time, are able to extract infinite energy from the future re-collapse of the universe, and have resurrected us out of a whimsical sense of nostalgia.

if he is the creator, he isn't part of this universe most likely. and he most likely created an infinite amount of universes working with different physics. Given the fate of most species on our planet and the fate of our planet, in case he did it it's a scrap paper he whipes his ass with. Your life is still as insignifican as it can be, just imagine how you 200 000 year old specie is insignificant. Why would he give a shit?

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

Oh, don't worry. I don't believe in a god. I was only pointing out that the specific argument in question ("why would he care about insignificant little creatures on an insignificant little planet?") isn't very strong.

[Gillipig]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

That's actually one of the weaker arguments against god. You're thinking in human terms. We have finite resources, so we can't spend a lot of time and effort worrying about trivialities like the fate of one single anonymous protein molecule in our body.

If we were a being with infinite time and infinite ability, however, we wouldn't face these constraints. If you had infinite memory and infinite computing power, you could in fact track an infinite number of variables, and paying attention to the fate of a single isolated protein molecule would be no more and no less pressing than looking after the fate of the Andromeda galaxy.

I read a book once which postulated that god is our distant descendants, who have mastered space and time, are able to extract infinite energy from the future re-collapse of the universe, and have resurrected us out of a whimsical sense of nostalgia.

if he is the creator, he isn't part of this universe most likely. and he most likely created an infinite amount of universes working with different physics. Given the fate of most species on our planet and the fate of our planet, in case he did it it's a scrap paper he whipes his ass with. Your life is still as insignifican as it can be, just imagine how you 200 000 year old specie is insignificant. Why would he give a shit?

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

Oh, don't worry. I don't believe in a god. I was only pointing out that the specific argument in question ("why would he care about insignificant little creatures on an insignificant little planet?") isn't very strong.

With other words he was trying to educate you Betiko, you just got homeschooled.

[betiko]

How can people be so self centered in their meaningless human existence to the point of thinking there is a superior existence caring and listening to them?
This is like being a protein inside a body and thinking that body gives a flying shit about you.
Get real people. If there is a god he doesn t give a flying shit about who you are and what you do. Take your own responsabilities towards right or wrong. Don t do things in the name of your god that doesn t exist, at least in the way you see him, your caring skydaddy.

That's actually one of the weaker arguments against god. You're thinking in human terms. We have finite resources, so we can't spend a lot of time and effort worrying about trivialities like the fate of one single anonymous protein molecule in our body.

If we were a being with infinite time and infinite ability, however, we wouldn't face these constraints. If you had infinite memory and infinite computing power, you could in fact track an infinite number of variables, and paying attention to the fate of a single isolated protein molecule would be no more and no less pressing than looking after the fate of the Andromeda galaxy.

I read a book once which postulated that god is our distant descendants, who have mastered space and time, are able to extract infinite energy from the future re-collapse of the universe, and have resurrected us out of a whimsical sense of nostalgia.

if he is the creator, he isn't part of this universe most likely. and he most likely created an infinite amount of universes working with different physics. Given the fate of most species on our planet and the fate of our planet, in case he did it it's a scrap paper he whipes his ass with. Your life is still as insignifican as it can be, just imagine how you 200 000 year old specie is insignificant. Why would he give a shit?

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

Oh, don't worry. I don't believe in a god. I was only pointing out that the specific argument in question ("why would he care about insignificant little creatures on an insignificant little planet?") isn't very strong.

With other words he was trying to educate you Betiko, you just got homeschooled.

I just see we have different opinions as I probably don't have the same scale of things as he seems to speak of a god from our universe and I speak of a god responsible for the probable infinite universes existing (and existing isn t a correct word, as we cannot picture how other universes work, the concept of existing might not even apply elsewhere)


Ps: to anyone using bible quotations as an argument I m done talking to you, stay in your cave.

[warmonger1981]

For non believers...... What is the driving force for you to do good or act in a civil way? Where does your reasoning come from to act the way you do? If there is no God then its free game to do, act, or be anything you want. What is restricting people from mistreating others? Are morals God given or just a simple system of thought?

[betiko]

For non believers...... What is the driving force for you to do good or act in a civil way? Where does your reasoning come from to act the way you do? If there is no God then its free game to do, act, or be anything you want. What is restricting people from mistreating others? Are morals God given or just a simple system of thought?

empathy towards other humans and other living beings, it's in our DNA, we are pack animals living in society.
The declaration of human rights isn't a religious thing for example and I'm pretty sure you would agree with all what's in it.
Do you really need the threat of an old man on his cloud writing down all the bad things you are doing, to then punish you burning your soul in hell for eternity?
Or you can just take the responsability yourself to catch that old lady to tell her that her wallet fell and that you picked it up for her?

Do you think religious people are better persons than atheists/agnostics?

[warmonger1981]

Where does the empathy come from? The old man in the cloud thing only can be used to a certain degree. Why not just let the old lady fall or just take the money? What's the difference if there is no God. She just dies and you got more money. And no religious people are no better than non believers. Radical Islam or Catholic priests prove that. Its a person by person analysis needed to verify good or bad. BTW if its in our DNA where did our DNA get the idea of packs or sympathy? DNA cannot think, can it?

[2dimes]

Do you think religious people are better persons than atheists/agnostics?

No. In some cases the opposite is true.

I do know some who have become better people as individuals because of a drastic almost miraculous change. It is why they are known as "born again". In their personal cases they are much better people after becoming religious.

Thing is it is not the religion because, more often I have seen people getting caught up in a moment, usually at an event and thinking they are born again. For a short time they are euphoric, maybe faint, pretend to speak in tongues, dance, etc. then decide later it's not really for them. Usually they wanted to fit in to the church group with their friends that night but did not want to leave things they enjoy doing in life behind.

[BigBallinStalin]

For non believers...... What is the driving force for you to do good or act in a civil way? Where does your reasoning come from to act the way you do? If there is no God then its free game to do, act, or be anything you want. What is restricting people from mistreating others? Are morals God given or just a simple system of thought?

People are capable of forming rules within their organizations. Not all moral rules must stem from some divine being. These aren't simple systems, and substitutes abound...

[Lord Arioch]

A good upbringing...or did god invent that 2?

[warmonger1981]

Is it nothing more than order out of chaos?

[Lord Arioch]

What a good upbringing?

[universalchiro]

I'm 24 and I've just been through 4 months of chemo + 1 month of radiation, the most recent side effect was an inability to eat solid food for 3 weeks; now it's 4:00 AM and I just left the bedside of my 10 month old niece who has spent over a month in the Pediatric Cardiac ICU after multiple heart surgeries. Obviously there's terrible pain, suffering, and evil in the world but that has never driven me to the belief that God is evil. I'm sorry that you feel the need to jump to that conclusion.

I am sorry to hear of yours and your niece's health problems, and my response is not meant to be insensitive or offensive, and since you are dualistic in your philosophy, I will respond in like.

Since your belief in God is that He/She is good and merciful (as such it seems since both you and your niece have gone through much suffering and survived), and that such belief is that God has created all things (God is all powerful, all knowing after all); then God, therefore, created the illnesses of which both your niece and yourself have suffered. To what ends? To enlighten you? To enlighten you for what?

If a dualistic God created the suffering and one of you had died from it, then what? Would you still think of it as a miracle? Perhaps it was just part of God's plan? What plan?!?

I or she may still die in the near future--she's still in ICU and I haven't received the result of the most recent PET/CT scan; in any case, we know that we will both die eventually. I don't claim a miracle has occurred, and whether either of us lives or dies has no bearing on the goodness of God. I don't need to see God's plan in order to trust Him. "...we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." Romans 5:3-4

For every miracle that Cult members believe happens in the world, I will show you a crocodile ripping apart a baby gazelle. Your faith is your crutch, and I do not fault you for it, and neither do I wish you to discontinue your belief in such. I just cannot adopt a belief in a Good God that permits evil and disease and suffering to perforate the world.

I find it interesting that you seem to believe a crocodile ripping apart a baby gazelle shows some defection in nature; from a naturalistic standpoint, that is perfectly normal. If you are saying that is not the way things should be, then you are admitting there is way things should be. Where are you obtaining this standard from? From a theistic standpoint, there is free will and therefore sin from which has sprung pain and suffering; this is to be expected in the world in which we live but will be rectified in the end.

Secondly, I'm curious what you mean about faith being a crutch. Do you mean that Jesus brings comfort and hope in difficult times? If so, then that's more of a reason to believe in Him then to disbelieve! Why turn from something/Someone that works! Or are you intimating the Freudian belief that God is simply a projection of a father figure in our lives that adults still desire after outgrowing their parents? I disagree, but then it cuts both ways, maybe you choose to disbelieve in God because you want to avoid such a father figure! Neither one actually proves or disproves God; it's just a red herring.

If Good was indeed the intention of a Dualistic God, then God would then not permit such evil to exist; but since evil and suffering do exist, then how can your God be Good? Perhaps God only pretends to be so.

You seem to believe that there is no possible morally sufficient reason for God to allow free will. Do you want Him to end all evil? Then you and I would be the first to go! I'm very thankful that he is willing to allow free will and bring good out of evil so that we may have the chance to choose to follow Him, rather than be robots doing His bidding or be zapped the second we think an evil thought. If God's plan is to create the conditions in which the largest number of people freely choose Him and eternal life through Him, then it would seem very difficult to do so in a world where there was no evil; in my personal life I found it is in the valleys of life that I am pushed closer to Him. On the mountaintops it is very easy to become proud of "my" achievements and forget about Him.

If there is a god, which is yet to prove; what makes you think he gives a shit about you or your ludicrous way to understand him through flawed cults?

Sending His innocent Son to die for the sins of people who were still enemies of Him, allowing imperfect people into the presence of a holy God, is a pretty good indication that He cares. "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:7-8

+1
Very well written.

[BigBallinStalin]

Is it nothing more than order out of chaos?

One could say the same story about the emergence and evolution of various religions during humanity's ~200,000 year history.

[warmonger1981]

What defines good as we see it? Like helping an old lady cross the street. Thats goodWhy not rob the old lady? Why is that not good? More cut throat philosophy. Survival of the fittist. Maybe because its easier to work with others.
Just thinking.

[Dukasaur]

What defines good as we see it? Like helping an old lady cross the street. Thats goodWhy not rob the old lady? Why is that not good? More cut throat philosophy. Survival of the fittist. Maybe because its easier to work with others.
Just thinking.

Exactly. It's easier to work with others. Homo sapiens is a pack animal. We do not like to live alone. That's the long and the short of all social ethics. There's different theories about the fine details, but bottom line is that we all know we get more out of life through some form of co-operation than through constant strife.

None of this depends on religion. Religions do try to codify the rules of playing nicely together, but their rules -- at least the ones that are generally recognised -- are pretty much the same as what the basic rules are in non-religious societies.