Post Any Evidence For God Here

[HitRed]

Why would humanity need a God?

Because humans die.

Spoiler

I tell you truly, if you wish eternal life, you must come to me while there is still time. - God

[mookiemcgee]

Why would humanity need a God?

Because humans die.

Oh man, he's so close.

[Apatheist]

TRY IT; Learn from Reading, Apatheist.

I read Ezekiel. Try reading it without blinkers (or did you mean the town in Berkshire, England? )
I'll give you some hints:

• The Descending Craft: The "windstorm coming out of the north," the "immense cloud with flashing lightning," and a glowing core like "gleaming bronze" (Ezekiel 1:4) are interpreted as the smoke, fire, and heat generated by a spacecraft descending through the atmosphere. [As Captain Kirk says, why would god need a spaceship?]
• The Living Creatures: Ezekiel describes four living creatures with human forms, four wings, and straight legs with sparkled bronze feet (Ezekiel 1:5-7). Space theorists argue these were actually structural supports, landing gear, or mechanical helicopter-like rotor blades.
• The "Wheel Within a Wheel": Ezekiel describes wheels that could move in any direction without turning, rims "full of eyes," and the ability to lift off the ground (Ezekiel 1:15-19). In engineering terms, theorists view this as a multi-directional propulsion system or landing gear wheels.
• The Expanse and the Throne: The "expanse, sparkling like ice" above the creatures' heads (Ezekiel 1:22) is re-imagined as a glass cockpit or capsule ceiling, while the "likeness of a throne" (Ezekiel 1:26) is viewed as the pilot's command module.

Try reading this, you may find it amusing:
https://www.cantab.net/users/michael.be ... er_05.html

open to many interpretations; NO one can claim certainty.

Put it in CONTEXT: Aliens, not likely. Encounter with God or Messenger or Angel? maybe

read Crash go the Chariots, book.

Put yourself in the position of a shepherd thousands of years before anyone understood science, trying to describe phenomena that seemed otherworldly. How would they describe space craft, helicopters, air craft, jet packs, space suits, tractor beams and all the stuff we know about now?
They didn't know about other planets, so the only thing they could think of was some sort of heaven.
I think Aliens is at least as likely as angels. We know life exists on at least one planet and interplanetary travel is possible. We don't know that angels exist at all.

The other explanation, which is also at least as likely, is the plant-induced hallucinations that have been mentioned before.
There's no hard evidence, but this is some of the speculation:

• The "Burning Bush" and Acacia Theory:
Some researchers, such as cognitive psychologist Benny Shanon, have proposed speculative hypotheses suggesting that events like Moses and the burning bush or the revelations at Mount Sinai could have involved natural psychoactive substances. For instance, acacia trees (common in the Sinai and Middle Eastern deserts) contain DMT (a potent psychedelic compound), leading some to hypothesize-without hard proof—that natural fumes or plant brews played a role.
• Anointing Oils and Incense:
Other writers have suggested that ancient temple ingredients—such as kaneh-bosem (disputed by botanists as either cannabis or sweet cane/lemongrass) or the holy anointing oils and tabernacle incense described in Exodus—might have had mind-altering or sensory-enhancing properties for the priesthood, though these claims remain heavily contested.
• Wider Ancient Context:
Archaeologists have found evidence that surrounding ancient cultures (such as the Philistines, ancient Egyptians, or participants in the Greek Eleusinian Mysteries) used plant-based intoxicants, henbane, or psychoactive brews in rituals. However, mainstream historians emphasize a large gap between general ancient near-eastern folk/pagan practices and the specific accounts of biblical or monotheistic prophets.

I agree that we'll never know; but, based on the evidence and how it fits the text, I think angels is actually the lease likely explanation.

[jusplay4fun]

Key phrase:

There's no hard evidence, but this is some of the speculation

[Apatheist]

Key phrase:

There's no hard evidence, but this is some of the speculation

This is the way which anything that comes to us via oral tradition. Somewhere along the line though, someone may speculate accurately. It's just another possibility.
The logic I follow is this:
Either the author made up the entire thing; or they reported something that someone else told them.
That person could have made up the whole thing, or reported what someone else told them, all the way to the beginning.
In the first instance: either it was completely made up, or they believed they saw something.
They may have seen it through hallucination, or it was actually there.
If it were actually there, and anything like what was reported (ie flying beings), then it was almost certainly extra-terrestrial since we have no evidence that the technology existed in that time and place.
It's then just a matter of whether the origin was heaven, another planet, another dimension or - as I speculated in the book I started on the subject, but never finished, which I why I read up on it - another time in this planet's history.
Of those, the only one we know to exist is interplanetary travel.

[jusplay4fun]

Regarding the book Crash Go the Chariots:

He notes, “The hypothesis is put forward by [von Daniken] that [the Piri Re’is maps] must have been taken from a high-flying aircraft or from a spaceship. Piri Re’is himself stated on the map in question that he had consulted over 20 different earlier charts in the preparation of his own work… One interesting sidelight is that the River Amazon is shown twice… which can probably be explained by the fact that it WAS a piecing together of a number of charts.” (Pg. 78) (...)

For the idea that Ezekiel 1 describes spaceships, he suggests, “Ezekiel says that he saw ‘visions from God.’ ‘Visions’ are not necessarily literal phenomena… Ezekiel’s prophecy includes much symbolic teaching… In view of the clear statements as to the symbolic elements and the visionary presentation of this prophecy, there is little point in further following the outlandish interpretations … as to the experiences of Ezekiel.” (Pg. 94) (...)

He states, “Would con Daniken accept the Mayan belief that the earth rested on the back of a crocodile?... Von Daniken insists… that these people knew the earth was round. But how did the crocodile fit in? As a matter of fact, knowledge of a round earth was not restricted to the Mayas.” (Pg. 98) Later, he adds, I find it hard to believe that von Daniken takes these legends and folklore so seriously. It seems clear that a great many such statements cannot possibly be taken as expressions of literal fact in the sense that von Daniken accepts them…” (Pg. 110)

He concludes, “We do not discount the mysterious, and we readily acknowledge that startling knowledge was demonstrated in the construction of the pyramids and many other ancient buildings. However… that certainly does not mean we must look for the explanations by calling up visitors from outer space…. If early men did live for great periods of time, even apart from the Bible there is good reason to believe this, then in some areas their knowledge is likely to be significantly greater than that of twentieth century man… It is not really surprising that sometimes our ancestors had a knowledge beyond our own. That knowledge had its origin in God Himself.” (Pg. 160-161)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/687 ... e_Chariots

More Reviews, on Amazon

Review of Crash Go The Chariots
Reviewed in the United States on February 9, 2016
Format: Mass Market Paperback
Verified Purchase
The theory of extraterrestrial life coming to earth is put down by this scholarly work.

An awakening
Reviewed in the United States on April 23, 2017
I read this book in the late 70s after spending most of that decade as a 'True Believer'. It woke me up to how easy it is to confuse and bamboozle people into believing unsubstantiated nonsense. It was an awakening to skepticism, and I haven't looked back since. I'm grateful to this books for opening my eyes to the charms of the con artists out there who only want my money and who have very little regard for the truth.

[Apatheist]

Just other people's opinions. I didn't mention von Däniken at all; I don't find his explanation entirely credible or appropriate.
As I said, I read Ezekiel myself; you can find a version of the text here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=NABRE

1:4 As I watched, a great stormwind came from the North, a large cloud with flashing fire, a bright glow all around it, and something like polished metal gleamed at the center of the fire.

It is that hard to picture a craft with smoke coming from some sort of noisy engine?

1:22 Above the heads of the living creatures was a likeness of the firmament; it was awesome, stretching upwards like shining crystal over their heads.
1:24 Then I heard the sound of their wings, like the roaring of mighty waters, like the voice of the Almighty. When they moved, the sound of the tumult was like the din of an army. And when they stood still, they lowered their wings.
3:12 Then the spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me a loud rumbling noise as the glory of the Lord rose from its place: the noise of the wings of the living creatures beating against one another, and the noise of the wheels alongside them, a loud rumbling.

Can you really say that's not a craft flying, landing and taking off?
How else would a priest from 600BC describe things?

[jusplay4fun]

As I said, there are different interpretations. We will not know for sure what is the TRUTH, not in this World.

Your interpretation, Apatheist, is no more valid than mine. I did offer other perspectives that support my OPINION.

The arguments made in Crash Go the Chariots are valid and relevant to what you present.

And YES, what you quoted CAN be interpreted as a spaceship; I agree. BUT that does not make that INTERPRETATION valid.

[jusplay4fun]

from AI Summary:

The Bible does not contain any verses that talk about spaceships.

However, ancient-aliens theorists and pop-culture writers often re-interpret certain poetic or visionary passages as descriptions of flying craft or extraterrestrial technology:

• Ezekiel 1:4–28: Describes a whirlwind, a great cloud, flashing fire, and glowing metal. Verses 15–21 describe "a wheel within a wheel" with rims full of eyes that move alongside living creatures. Mainstream theologians and biblical scholars view this as a symbolic, apocalyptic vision of the glory and mobile throne of God rather than a physical spacecraft.

• 2 Kings 2:11: Describes the prophet Elijah being taken up into heaven by "a chariot of fire and horses of fire." Critics of the spaceship theory point out that the text explicitly mentions horses and is presented as a miraculous, divine translation rather than mechanical flight.

• Matthew 24:30: Mentions "the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," which some speculative writers have re-interpreted as a reference to a fleet of alien ships, though in Christian theology it refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

[Apatheist]

from AI Summary:

The Bible does not contain any verses that talk about spaceships.

However, ancient-aliens theorists and pop-culture writers often re-interpret certain poetic or visionary passages as descriptions of flying craft or extraterrestrial technology:

• Ezekiel 1:4–28: Describes a whirlwind, a great cloud, flashing fire, and glowing metal. Verses 15–21 describe "a wheel within a wheel" with rims full of eyes that move alongside living creatures. Mainstream theologians and biblical scholars view this as a symbolic, apocalyptic vision of the glory and mobile throne of God rather than a physical spacecraft.

• 2 Kings 2:11: Describes the prophet Elijah being taken up into heaven by "a chariot of fire and horses of fire." Critics of the spaceship theory point out that the text explicitly mentions horses and is presented as a miraculous, divine translation rather than mechanical flight.

• Matthew 24:30: Mentions "the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory," which some speculative writers have re-interpreted as a reference to a fleet of alien ships, though in Christian theology it refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

People see what they want to see.
Obviously it doesn't mention spaceships...I think people would have spotted that by now
Again, though, I return to the thought of how people of the time would describe things, which would only have been in terms that they understood and using the vocabulary that was available to them. The most sophisticated transport they knew about was a horse, perhaps with a chariot, so that's the best they could do to convey what they saw (which was probably from a distance, if it happened at all). As we saw with dragons/serpents, there's also a potential translation issue, since the Hebrew of time didn't have words for hyperdrive, space shuttles, hovercraft, radio, phasers, engines, rotor blades or jet packs.
Even more recently, some early earthly UFO encounters (real or imagined) describe being taken on board a ship by a "beam of light", because they hadn't yet seen Star Trek and heard of beaming up or tractor beams.

As an analogy: imagine trying to explain a television to someone of the time. Moving pictures transmitted over a distance to a receiver by electricity and radio (or micro) waves - none of those concepts existed, and of course, per Arthur C Clarke, it would seem like magic - or other-worldly ability. Try it: put yourself in Judea 2500 years ago and (allowing for the language) explain television to an educated person of the time. See how far you get before you run into a concept that takes you out of their experience and forces you to go more basic.

[Apatheist]

PS, from AI:

Global Religious Texts

• Hindu Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana): Sanskrit texts describe flying war machines called Vimanas equipped with powerful aerial weapons, which ancient astronaut writers compare to modern aircraft and missile technology.
• The Zohar: This 13th-century Jewish mystical text features passages describing an "ancient of days" and machinery (such as a purported "manna machine") that theorists link to synthetic food production and nuclear energy.
• Indigenous and Native Lore: Stories of "shining ones," blue avians, or star-people in traditions like Navajo and Iroquois histories are cited as records of non-human teachers who introduced laws, agriculture, or medicine.

[2dimes]

Do you still collect masks and pipes? I bought a pipe and tried it. Boy was that a surprise. It tasted like regular tobacco smoke. I found that strange because the fragrant aroma is so pleasant.

I hope you’re having a great year.

Yes, but you look much cooler and distinguished with a pipe!
Do you got yourself a "berry" pipe?
A Berry Pipe is just a regular pipe except that you only smoke Berry/Cherry/Fruity tobaccos in it.
I'm usually not a big fan, but my daughter bought me a Cherrywood Pipe and I wasn't sure what to smoke out of it, so I made it into a Berry pipe.
I found a tobacco called "Cult". Probably the best cherry tobacco I've had.
I've slowed down on the mask collecting some. I might get back into it when I get the house paid off.
Nice to hear from you.

I have a Valentina pipe made in Italy, it was fairly reasonably priced, I bought it in Montreal. Not sure what type of wood it is. I considered a nice warden style but they were a bit expensive since I wasn’t sure how it was going to go.

The tobacco I bought was Backwoods Original by Sutliff Tobacco Company in Richmond VA. Unlit it smells quite sweet a bit like vanilla.

It’s been a few years since I lit it. Maybe I’ll try again and see if I can just enjoy the scent of it nearby on the deck before it gets too cold out.