new look Crossword 1.1 [Vacation]

[rebelman]

I'm no graphic artist or mathematician but the original crossword map was also symmetrical. I play crosswords regularly and most of them are.

nope the original map is not symmetrical and again no crosswords aren't symmetrical. just do a google image search for crosswords. you'll find hundreds of images. most of them aren't symmetrical.

DiM I know i'm not an insider in the world of the foundry but I didn't come down in the last shower. The existing crossword map is symmetrical, yes the territories are colored a particular way so they are different sizes but this map is symmetrical. As you and some of the others that had said differently are highly respected cartographers I was starting to doubt myself but having just checked again it definitely is. The crossword is symmetrical its just the territories are colored a particular way that makes it look like it is not but this map is without a doubt a symmetrical one.

[DiM]

I'm no graphic artist or mathematician but the original crossword map was also symmetrical. I play crosswords regularly and most of them are.

nope the original map is not symmetrical and again no crosswords aren't symmetrical. just do a google image search for crosswords. you'll find hundreds of images. most of them aren't symmetrical.

DiM I know i'm not an insider in the world of the foundry but I didn't come down in the last shower. The existing crossword map is symmetrical, yes the territories are colored a particular way so they are different sizes but this map is symmetrical. As you and some of the others that had said differently are highly respected cartographers I was starting to doubt myself but having just checked again it definitely is. The crossword is symmetrical its just the territories are colored a particular way that makes it look like it is not but this map is without a doubt a symmetrical one.

ok let's clear this.
the original crossword map has a symmetrical design BUT the continents aren't symmetrical. and that's all that matters. people don't have a problem with symmetrical graphics. they have a problem with symmetrical gameplay. and that's exactly what the crosswords 2.0 map has. symmetrical gameplay.
if you look at the maps with symmetrical gameplay they are all at the bottom of the playing list. people don't like them.
and also look at their graphics. they are really good and they have better themes and yet they aren't played. do you think this map that has worse graphics and theme will be more successful?

[rebelman]

ok let's clear this.
the original crossword map has a symmetrical design BUT the continents aren't symmetrical. and that's all that matters.

i said that the map was symmetrical pages back i never said the continents were, glad you are finally agreeing with me.

if you look at the maps with symmetrical gameplay they are all at the bottom of the playing list. people don't like them.
and also look at their graphics. they are really good and they have better themes and yet they aren't played.

It would be more correct to say "some" people don't like symmetrical game play. Based on how rarely some of these games are played it could be argued the majority of players don't like it but as no discussion on symetrical game lay has wondered outside the foundry to the best of my knowledge and i am certain no professional research has been done on this topic it would be wrong of us to make assumptions. One of my 3 favourite maps on here is circus Maximus and I'm not alone in really liking this map and you can't get more symetrical if you tried. The reasons people play or don't play a map are many and varied, symettry is well down the list i suspect. My favourite of the new maps is Pearl Harbour yet I hear two reasons regularly why people don't want to play it one is they find the bonuses confusing (I don't, I think they are excellent and make complete sense) and its not really risk (players that say that will rarely play anything other than classic anyway).

do you think this map that has worse graphics and theme will be more successful?

At this early stage of its design process it would be very unfair of me or anyone to compare it to maps that have gone through the foundry process and cone out the other side, it would be comparing a draft to a finished product and that to me makes no sense. As for the theme I actually think its a very good one. Comparing it to other themes that have been used I believe it is as good a theme and arguably a better theme than many - theme is not a problem in my mind.

One final not on symetry - I notice this thread on widow's latest creation has a poll:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29379

There have been just 50 respondents - which sounds like a mix of foundry regulars as distinct from a sample of cc's general game playing population. Bearing this in mind the results seem amazing to me considering what you have described as everyone being opposed to symmetry in maps. Of those that are in favor of it continuing 42.5% are not opposed to it being symmetrical and of those unopposed to symmetry 29.4% have specifically asked widow to make it symetrical.

[asl80]

any hints on where to check the maps played statistics?

[DiM]

ok let's clear this.
the original crossword map has a symmetrical design BUT the continents aren't symmetrical. and that's all that matters.

i said that the map was symmetrical pages back i never said the continents were, glad you are finally agreeing with me.

when you said the map is symmetrical i assumed you were referring to the continents not the design. my bad on understanding it the wrong way.

if you look at the maps with symmetrical gameplay they are all at the bottom of the playing list. people don't like them.
and also look at their graphics. they are really good and they have better themes and yet they aren't played.

It would be more correct to say "some" people don't like symmetrical game play. Based on how rarely some of these games are played it could be argued the majority of players don't like it but as no discussion on symetrical game lay has wondered outside the foundry to the best of my knowledge and i am certain no professional research has been done on this topic it would be wrong of us to make assumptions. One of my 3 favourite maps on here is circus Maximus and I'm not alone in really liking this map and you can't get more symetrical if you tried. The reasons people play or don't play a map are many and varied, symettry is well down the list i suspect. My favourite of the new maps is Pearl Harbour yet I hear two reasons regularly why people don't want to play it one is they find the bonuses confusing (I don't, I think they are excellent and make complete sense) and its not really risk (players that say that will rarely play anything other than classic anyway).

i didn't say all or some. i said "people don't like" of course there are people that like symmetrical maps. there will always be but their number is too small.

do you think this map that has worse graphics and theme will be more successful?

At this early stage of its design process it would be very unfair of me or anyone to compare it to maps that have gone through the foundry process and cone out the other side, it would be comparing a draft to a finished product and that to me makes no sense. As for the theme I actually think its a very good one. Comparing it to other themes that have been used I believe it is as good a theme and arguably a better theme than many - theme is not a problem in my mind.

actually i am not comparing a draft. i am just talking about this map and spinwizard said that's all he can do with the graphics "because they're only squares" once he said that the graphics part of this map became a big zero for me. i tried showing him an alternative and still nothing.
as for the theme. hmm tell me a crappier theme than this. you said it's better than many. give me many examples.

One final not on symetry - I notice this thread on widow's latest creation has a poll:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29379

There have been just 50 respondents - which sounds like a mix of foundry regulars as distinct from a sample of cc's general game playing population. Bearing this in mind the results seem amazing to me considering what you have described as everyone being opposed to symmetry in maps. Of those that are in favor of it continuing 42.5% are not opposed to it being symmetrical and of those unopposed to symmetry 29.4% have specifically asked widow to make it symetrical.

i have no idea what poll results you're looking at but here they are:

Code: Select all

Yes!      25%     [ 13 ]
Yes, Make it symmetrical.     9%     [ 5 ]
Yes, As long as it is NOT symmetrical!        45%     [ 23 ]
No!        19%     [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 51

i don't know where you see 29.4 specifically asking for symmetry.
i see only 9% wanting symmetry and 45% being clearly opposed to symmetry and you have to consider the fact that pacman games are symmetrical. so making them symmetrical means staying true to the theme of that map and yet people prefer sacrificing the trueness of the theme just so they don't get symmetry.

as i told you the best way to see if people want symmetry or not is to look at the symmetry maps we have available. us senate 8 thoughts chinese checkers. they are right at the bottom of the list. heck even oaktown said he hates making his map (chinese checkers) symmetrical and that he doesn't play it for this very reason.

[DiM]

any hints on where to check the maps played statistics?

go to game finder and check the box of any map you want then:

1. click enter to see all the games ever created since the beginning for that map.
2. check the waiting for players box to then hit enter to see how many people currently want to play that map.
3. check the active games box then hit enter to see how many people currently play that map.
4. check the finished games box then hit enter to see how many games have been finished since the beginning of that map.

how to analyze the results:
* when the results are displayed there will be 100 games on each page so if a map shows 50 pages of finished games then it means somewhere between 4901-5000 games have been played on it.
* checking the number of active games gives a good indication of how popular a map really is. so even if a map has 100 pages of completed games it might be considered a washed-up map if it has only 3 active games.
* other indicators can be obtained by dividing the total number of games by the total number of months a map has been available for play. for example crosswords has been available for 18 months and has 3700 games. that means it has an average of 200 games per month. note that data down in a chart and check again next month. if you see the number of finished games has increased from 3700 to 4500 it means in the last month the map has been played in 800 games which is 4 times more than the average. it means the map is making a big comeback (this usually happens after a revamp) if however after a month you see it has increased from 3700 to 3800 it means it had 100 games which is half of the average and it means the map is on a continuous downfall and that fewer and fewer people are playing it.

every map (except for classic) has a cycle of life. it is born and has losts of games. most maps are played a lot during their first 1-2 months then they slowly drop to a plateau where they stay for some time. that's because the initial excitement has dropped and only fans play the map. then after some more time the fans go to other maps and slowly the map dies. actually it doesn't dies as any map will still have a few die hard fans but if a map has 20 games per month you can at least say it's in a deep coma with no chance of coming back. crosswords is now in a coma as well as few other maps.

a good example for such an analysis is circus maximus. it was played well at first then went into a coma. it was revived by widowmakers' revamp and had a slight burst and shortly after it fell again into a coma.

[rebelman]

One final not on symetry - I notice this thread on widow's latest creation has a poll:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29379

There have been just 50 respondents - which sounds like a mix of foundry regulars as distinct from a sample of cc's general game playing population. Bearing this in mind the results seem amazing to me considering what you have described as everyone being opposed to symmetry in maps. Of those that are in favor of it continuing 42.5% are not opposed to it being symmetrical and of those unopposed to symmetry 29.4% have specifically asked widow to make it symetrical.

i have no idea what poll results you're looking at but here they are:

Code: Select all

Yes!      25%     [ 13 ]
Yes, Make it symmetrical.     9%     [ 5 ]
Yes, As long as it is NOT symmetrical!        45%     [ 23 ]
No!        19%     [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 51

i don't know where you see 29.4 specifically asking for symmetry.
i see only 9% wanting symmetry and 45% being clearly opposed to symmetry and you have to consider the fact that pacman games are symmetrical. so making them symmetrical means staying true to the theme of that map and yet people prefer sacrificing the trueness of the theme just so they don't get symmetry.

DiM please read again what i said before misinterpreting my figures (one further vote has been cast since I extracted the data but the logic remains the same)

Firstly we need to eliminate the 10 voters that voted no as I spoke of only those in favor of the map thus reducing the sample size from 50 to 40. Of these 40 I said 42.5% are not opposed to symmetry this equates to 17 respondents ie 5 + 12 (the additional vote has been cast in the yes category, hence the change from 13 in your post above to 12 in my explanation)

Of these 17 who have no objection to symmetry 5 specifically ask for it this equates in percentage terms to 29.4% as I stated above.

I'm sorry that I had to walk through my calculations in baby steps for you as this probably comes across as being patronising but I wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying, as someone who works with statistics a lot in the real world I would be the first to admit I was wrong and publish the relevant correction but in this instance I am correct it's just a case of my post not being read properly.

As this lack or understanding / proper reading may explain some of the other matters as well I will give DiM a chance to read my post(s) again and edit his reponses if he believes editing is required before I print any further replies so as to save him any further unnecessary embarrassment.

[DiM]

One final not on symetry - I notice this thread on widow's latest creation has a poll:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29379

There have been just 50 respondents - which sounds like a mix of foundry regulars as distinct from a sample of cc's general game playing population. Bearing this in mind the results seem amazing to me considering what you have described as everyone being opposed to symmetry in maps. Of those that are in favor of it continuing 42.5% are not opposed to it being symmetrical and of those unopposed to symmetry 29.4% have specifically asked widow to make it symetrical.

i have no idea what poll results you're looking at but here they are:

Code: Select all

Yes!      25%     [ 13 ]
Yes, Make it symmetrical.     9%     [ 5 ]
Yes, As long as it is NOT symmetrical!        45%     [ 23 ]
No!        19%     [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 51

i don't know where you see 29.4 specifically asking for symmetry.
i see only 9% wanting symmetry and 45% being clearly opposed to symmetry and you have to consider the fact that pacman games are symmetrical. so making them symmetrical means staying true to the theme of that map and yet people prefer sacrificing the trueness of the theme just so they don't get symmetry.

DiM please read again what i said before misinterpreting my figures (one further vote has been cast since I extracted the data but the logic remains the same)

Firstly we need to eliminate the 10 voters that voted no as I spoke of only those in favor of the map thus reducing the sample size from 50 to 40. Of these 40 I said 42.5% are not opposed to symmetry this equates to 17 respondents ie 5 + 12 (the additional vote has been cast in the yes category, hence the change from 13 in your post above to 12 in my explanation)

Of these 17 who have no objection to symmetry 5 specifically ask for it this equates in percentage terms to 29.4% as I stated above.

I'm sorry that I had to walk through my calculations in baby steps for you as this probably comes across as being patronising but I wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying, as someone who works with statistics a lot in the real world I would be the first to admit I was wrong and publish the relevant correction but in this instance I am correct it's just a case of my post not being read properly.

As this lack or understanding / proper reading may explain some of the other matters as well I will give DiM a chance to read my post(s) again and edit his reponses if he believes editing is required before I print any further replies so as to save him any further unnecessary embarrassment.

i don't feel patronized nor embarrassed because you are wrong here.

you completely screwed the calculations for 2 reasons:

1. you took out the ones that said no. bear in mind that perhaps some of those people said no because of the symmetry they didn't like.
2. being subjective.

using the a part of a part of a part of a part strategy you magically inflated 9% to 29%. which following the calculations is correct but again it's 29% (people that asked for symmetry) of 42.5% (people that said yes but didn't say they don't want symmetry) of 80% (people that said yes) of 100% (people that voted). come on mate. i worked in marketing i used this strategy to inflate figures a lot. nobody can say the figures aren't true and that the calculations are wrong but the truth is that they are a big fat lie made up to fool the unsuspecting customer that has no time to do the math.

it's like saying 80% of the women that participated in this shampoo test and liked it will use it again. it's correct. and putting the big percentage is good for sales but you'll see written in small fonts something like this:

20 women participated 15 said it's crap and 5 liked it and out of the 5 that liked it 1 said she will never used it again and 4 said they will use it.

on the commerciall it says 80% and most people will say 80% of the testers are happy with the product and will forever use it. when in fact that 80% is artificially inflated like you did from a mere 20% (4 out of 20)

FACT is 9% (only 5 people) from the TOTAL number of posters in that poll asked for symmetry anything else is pure speculation.


EDIT//
using your analysis technique i can produce the following statement.

86.9% of people don't like symmetry.

can you argue my calculations?

out of 51 voters we take out the ones that voted simply yes (just like you took out the ones that voted no)

we have 38 people. from those 38 people just 5 asked for symmetry. that's 13.1%. subtract 13.1 from 100 and we have 86.9% of people that don't want symmetry. same technique different results.

feel free to edit your posts so you don't feel more embarrassed.


PS: god i'm loving this. i didn't have a good contradictory discussion on the net in quite some time.

[Gnome]

Ok wow I think I get it...after reading it like 5 times... And I have to admit that DiM is right...
But than again, I'm only studying teacher in fiscal education...which has no math at all...and no English as well

And I don't get why there are 70 people voting here while in a normal thread there is only a small 20 tot 30 people...

[DiM]

Ok wow I think I get it...after reading it like 5 times... And I have to admit that DiM is right...
But than again, I'm only studying teacher in fiscal education...which has no math at all...and no English as well

i also have to admit that i am right

And I don't get why there are 70 people voting here while in a normal thread there is only a small 20 tot 30 people...

because wl_southerner is a chat regular that has lots of buddies in there and he asked people to come and vote for his map. if you look through the thread i posted a list of people that have never been to the foundry before and some of them have never been to the forums and all of them are chat regulars (including the chat mods). i wouldn't be surprised if the 22 people that voted no are the foundry regulars.

[spinwizard]

your point being...btw update comeing later tonight after I have updated my mafia game and tourny

[rebelman]

i'm enjoying the debate too DiM, but I wish the topic was different as ironically I too as is evident by previous posts have strong reservations about this map, that sad a good debater should be able to argue in favour or against any given topic. PS without revealing my own vote I can say in absolute certainty the 22 nos are NOT all foundry regulars.

[rebelman]

i wouldn't be surprised if the 22 people that voted no are the foundry regulars.

Number of foundry regulars (source DiM, see above): 22
Number of players active at the moment (source Scoreboard): 18,553

foundry regulars as a % of active mebership: 0.1185792%

The above is the most startling % of all and i believe these figures tell their own story.

[DiM]

i'm enjoying the debate too DiM, but I wish the topic was different as ironically I too as is evident by previous posts have strong reservations about this map, that sad a good debater should be able to argue in favour or against any given topic. PS without revealing my own vote I can say in absolute certainty the 22 nos are NOT all foundry regulars.

debate team captain in high school. went all the the way to the finals where i couldn't participate due to an elimination (caused by losing my temper) in the semifinals.

btw in the semis we won because we managed to convince the other team bananas are blue so yes i have the gift of debating over the most stupd things.


PS: contrary to what people might be inclined to think i wasn't a nerd.

[DiM]

i wouldn't be surprised if the 22 people that voted no are the foundry regulars.

Number of foundry regulars (source DiM, see above): 22
Number of players active at the moment (source Scoreboard): 18,553

foundry regulars as a % of active mebership: 0.1185792%

The above is the most startling % of all and i believe these figures tell their own story.

yeah and the story is. 18553-22=18531 people have no idea how maps are produced. you can only imagine these people can cause to the foundry process if they start coming here and voting.

[spinwizard]

Ok, i respect ur opinion but can u stop being so ellteist

[WL_southerner]

dim you really need to look about abit did i not see that a new map has over 100 votes for it,and i think i see age of realms had 70+ for it and a no vote of 19 when it comes to voting news do get around and if they think its a good idea or a real bad idea they will come down here and vote most will not post
cause the foundry has a repution for being very brutal and very unfriendly

[DiM]

Ok, i respect ur opinion but can u stop being so ellteist

i assume you wanted to say elitist. and no i won't stop. sometimes elitism is good. would you allow a redneck to work in a nuclear facility or would you entrust that responsibility to an educated nuclear physicist?
that's elitism and it's damn well founded.
of course if that redneck goes and studies and comes back with a good knowledge then he will be most welcomed.

that's the same with the foundry. some people know how a map should be done and what feedback they must give while others don't. a guy that comes and says "great map let's play on it" has no idea how things work here and for me his opinion is zero. but if that same guys looks first analyzes and carefully thinks before he writes then his opinion will mean a lot.

most people than have never been to the foundry would vote yes for any map. but the foundry regulars have learned to say no and maybe. you'll never see a foundry regular yelling quench 2 minutes after a map has been proposed as an idea.

[Gnome]

Age of Realms, topic started 21 Jul 2007 99votes

Crossword 2.0, topic started 11 october 70 votes

I don't think you have a point...in 6 days there are 70 votes in this thread while in age of realms it took almost 3months...Also looking that In hollidays there are normaly more players active, also in the foundry...

[DiM]

dim you really need to look about abit did i not see that a new map has over 100 votes for it,and i think i see age of realms had 70+ for it and a no vote of 19 when it comes to voting news do get around and if they think its a good idea or a real bad idea they will come down here and vote most will not post
cause the foundry has a repution for being very brutal and very unfriendly

mate you're from UK for crying out loud. i can't really understand what you want to say here.

and the foundry is not brutal if you know how to behave. if people come here expecting the foundry to be like the clubhouse or the flame forum then they're in for a big surprise. we like to keep things organized here. we like seriousness and careful thinking. spamming and posting stupid things will most likely be ignored.

stick around for a while read other threads learn how things work and after you make a map and it gets quenched and a guy comes and says it sucks tell me if you'll take him serious or you'll ignore him. this happens a lot. people come after maps are quenched and say it sucks they don't bother to read the thread and see the debates on the bonuses and gameplay and graphics and stuff. they just come in and act like idiots. same thing for people that yell quench after the draft.

[WL_southerner]

then you are saying i must treat you with the contempt

[DiM]

then you are saying i must treat you with the contempt

so from what i said you understood that you must disrespect me?

well done my teachings are over.

seriously now. read again what i wrote. then read it another time. then another and so on. hopefully by the 10th time you read it you will understand it.

[WL_southerner]

dim please and go and spam your map in the making

[DiM]

dim please and go and spam your map in the making

i'm not spamming. i'm actually talking about this map. that's what people do in map threads they talk about maps.

i've given feedback about theme gameplay and graphics. heck i even made a whole new graphic for this map. and yet none of the authors (you and spinwizard) bothered to engage in the conversation and correct the flaws i pointed.

you should stop wasting time and propose a different graphic or a different gameplay.

[spinwizard]

Sorry guys but the update will have 2 wait until tomorrow, I have some problems I need to sort out