INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Tobikera]

@blacky
I assume your responses are in non-bold red and the last bold red vote is just a copy from the post you are quoting? I was in a game once where a player voted to hammer himself to end his frustration and agony. It might be better for everyone to use blue instead of red to make their responses to quotes identifiable. Keep the color red for votes and unvotes.

[blacky365]

@blacky
I assume your responses are in non-bold red and the last bold red vote is just a copy from the post you are quoting? I was in a game once where a player voted to hammer himself to end his frustration and agony. It might be better for everyone to use blue instead of red to make their responses to quotes identifiable. Keep the color red for votes and unvotes.

Oops, you make a good point!
I shall remember this for next time.

[Razorvich]

[chapcrap]

Unvote No one had a post restriction today based on the same criteria that BuJ did yesterday I guess...

I've seen people going back and forth on who might be scummy based on voting

• IMO, you're more scummy if you weren't voting jfm. Seriously. He had 3 different role claims by the time he was lynched. And his final claim was assassin, so...
• Voting pershy is the scummy side of that vote. I'm on the vote. I would have unvoted if I wasn't on vacation. I never bought Ragian's excuse for leading the lynch. Unvoting and the revoting. Mets came in and hammered quickly. Tobi decided to add on the vote even though he was already lynched.
• Here is the list of people on pershy and not on jfm"
  
  • Mets
  • Ragian
  • Tobi (kind of)

IMO, the scumminess is ranked in the order that I put them. I've felt it from Mets from the beginning and never had another town vibe from him at all. Ragian, I was leaning town on initially, but his responses and reaching at times lead me to lean scummy. I had actually been leaning town on Tobi before I started this post and now looking back at everything and the evidence, I don't know why I should feel that way. Tobi's "confirmed" ability was confirmed by Mets, so should I give credit to that? No one else was misdirected last night, so where is the double confirmation? And I don't buy the passive poisoner explanation at all. I buy that jfm was the poisoner. And there was only one poisoning N1, why not two? Getting meta, there are plenty of ways to kill people, why two poisoners? I don't buy it. I feel like it's a way to get the healer to use his power there. If I was SW, I wouldn't even touch that "poisoning" tonight. I'm for lynching Mets.

Vote Mets

Also, I'd like to hear from the people who don't vote... Who would you vote right now? Pika, TX? Especially Pika. Lurker.

[ZaBeast]

Im not saying either list are defo scum, im just not understanding why all the focus has been on those lynching JFM and not on Pershy's lynchers.

yet you emphasize one list over the other

This is quite normal in every game ive played in. Take someone to L-2 to pressure them to claim. And given JFM's partial claim, he became a fair target for further pressure.

How is getting someone you think is town to claim his role a good thing for town? And for that matter how is asking anyone to claim without the intent to follow-up a good thing for town? How would knowing someone's claim give you a better read on him, apart from the small chance someone would counter-claim? What reads did you intend to get from jfm claiming that would offset the downsides of your approach?

[blacky365]

Im not saying either list are defo scum, im just not understanding why all the focus has been on those lynching JFM and not on Pershy's lynchers.

yet you emphasize one list over the other
where did I emphasise one list over the other?

This is quite normal in every game ive played in. Take someone to L-2 to pressure them to claim. And given JFM's partial claim, he became a fair target for further pressure.

How is getting someone you think is town to claim his role a good thing for town? And for that matter how is asking anyone to claim without the intent to follow-up a good thing for town? How would knowing someone's claim give you a better read on him, apart from the small chance someone would counter-claim? What reads did you intend to get from jfm claiming that would offset the downsides of your approach?
this point has been discussed at length already. The point here is not the validity of the votes on jfm it’s the lack of action re pershy etc
I do find it fascinating how you are picking up on the more trivial points of my post and not grasping the main issue I was highlighting...

[Sirius Kase]

I think I need to reread, see who were the real influencers. I've reviewed the Razor's Day 1 stats charts. Our first train was Ragian with 5 votes, but then people moved on to jfm who got 7 votes, L-2. He stayed at L-2 for awhile as some got off, but others immediately got on. Interesting turnover. I want to copy the list, but it kept changing, so it's easier to do a search. Searching on "screenshot" brings up all Razor's day stat charts. Then everyone moved from jfm to pershy who finally got lynched. I was concentrating on different things than I would on a reread. I was sorting out the pro's and con's of a Day 1 lynch and other newbie stuff. I don't have time to reread at the moment, but tonight, when I do, I'll be paying attention to who is following who around and why.

[ZaBeast]

Im not saying either list are defo scum, im just not understanding why all the focus has been on those lynching JFM and not on Pershy's lynchers.

yet you emphasize one list over the other
where did I emphasise one list over the other?

This is quite normal in every game ive played in. Take someone to L-2 to pressure them to claim. And given JFM's partial claim, he became a fair target for further pressure.

How is getting someone you think is town to claim his role a good thing for town? And for that matter how is asking anyone to claim without the intent to follow-up a good thing for town? How would knowing someone's claim give you a better read on him, apart from the small chance someone would counter-claim? What reads did you intend to get from jfm claiming that would offset the downsides of your approach?
this point has been discussed at length already. The point here is not the validity of the votes on jfm it’s the lack of action re pershy etc
I do find it fascinating how you are picking up on the more trivial points of my post and not grasping the main issue I was highlighting...

1- the one with people on both lynches is bolded
2- I'm specifically talking about YOUR vote on jfm on D1, not the wagon on D2. I do agree with you I don't find it scummy to vote for jfm D2. That's not the issue here

[blacky365]

1- the one with people on both lynches is bolded
2- I'm specifically talking about YOUR vote on jfm on D1, not the wagon on D2. I do agree with you I don't find it scummy to vote for jfm D2. That's not the issue here

1- that was for information purposes and was highlighting those who voted both... perhaps I should not have included that part as it was directly linked to what I was saying earlier, but I did want to highlight who voted for both as I am sure there are scum lying in that list.
2-my vote on jfm was to get info out of him, when he provided some info I unvoted as did almost everyone. But the d1 vote is not the point and is distracting from my main point. If you want to know why I voted to get a claim then read back. If you don’t agree with the reason then that is fine but it is just your opinion on the game. From my view right now this is so suspicious... there was loads of chat surrounding jfm and when I query why not pershy suddenly everyone goes quiet... apart from you who is going completely off topic!

[ZaBeast]

You could have built a case from the results on the pershy wagon during D2. You didn't, apart from basically FOSing everyone on it and never acting on it. You could have reacted to Ragian's post, which contained the same list and had the same point as it seems your point is that we should look at the pershy lynch more closely. Now though, every post should be about it? I agree it's getting fairly (too) quiet around here though.

but I did want to highlight who voted for both as I am sure there are scum lying in that list.

This is exactly my point. You can't say you don't see voting for jfm as scummy and yet selectively point the finger at the people who lynched both jfm and pershy but not the ones who only lynched pershy. If you think the pershy wagon is scummy but not the jfm one, then the list that should contain scum is the list of people who voted pershy.

my vote on jfm was to get info out of him, when he provided some info I unvoted as did almost everyone [...] If you want to know why I voted to get a claim then read back. If you don’t agree with the reason then that is fine but it is just your opinion on the game.

I'll ask again then, since you got the info you wanted during D1. How does knowing jfm claimed doc helped you get a better read on him? I unvoted mostly because I wasn't confident enough in jfm's guilt to risk losing a doc, which should be the point of the claim (but also because the wagon was falling apart with the role-fishers leaving, and there was time to try to get a lynch before the end of the day, and also because I assumed we were likely to have a doc in the game). You unvoted because your role-fishing was successful. It doesn't mean your approach wasn't flawed.

Voting pershy is the scummy side of that vote. I'm on the vote. I would have unvoted if I wasn't on vacation. I never bought Ragian's excuse for leading the lynch. Unvoting and the revoting. Mets came in and hammered quickly. Tobi decided to add on the vote even though he was already lynched

If you were in the wagon, were you not agreeing with his arguments?
Tobi was not just "kind of" on jfm's wagon. He casted the first vote, unvoted, then revoted after the lynch was reached because his reason for unvoting was shit.

No one else was misdirected last night, so where is the double confirmation? And I don't buy the passive poisoner explanation at all. I buy that jfm was the poisoner. And there was only one poisoning N1, why not two? Getting meta, there are plenty of ways to kill people, why two poisoners? I don't buy it. I feel like it's a way to get the healer to use his power there. If I was SW, I wouldn't even touch that "poisoning" tonight. I'm for lynching Mets.

About the redirection: I agree that the fact no one claimed to have been redirected (not only BuJ as tobi could have had his action tampered with) is a little suspicious. If the action was redirected (bussed or otherwise) on scum though it could make sense he wouldn't claim being redirected in order to frame a townie. It is one of the reasons I believe tobi is scum though.
About the poisoner: If my guess is correct, blacky wasn't actually the initial target of the poisoner D1 and therefore it wouldn't be coming from jfm. I'd have loved to have Mets confirm the wording about the poisoning before blacky to make sure we're talking about the same poisoner and mets isn't just making stuff up.

[Metsfanmax]

About the poisoner: If my guess is correct, blacky wasn't actually the initial target of the poisoner D1 and therefore it wouldn't be coming from jfm. I'd have loved to have Mets confirm the wording about the poisoning before blacky to make sure we're talking about the same poisoner and mets isn't just making stuff up.

I can share more language from my night action result that blacky may be able to confirm, depending on what happened to him: I was told that I "messed with the wrong prey," and that the pain I experienced was a "sharp burning pain."

[TX AG 90]

About the poisoner: If my guess is correct, blacky wasn't actually the initial target of the poisoner D1 and therefore it wouldn't be coming from jfm. I'd have loved to have Mets confirm the wording about the poisoning before blacky to make sure we're talking about the same poisoner and mets isn't just making stuff up.

I can share more language from my night action result that blacky may be able to confirm, depending on what happened to him: I was told that I "messed with the wrong prey," and that the pain I experienced was a "sharp burning pain."

That wording definitely points to a passive poisoner. It will be interesting to see if Blacky's poisoning wording from N1 is similar or if he was poisoned before reaching his prey (indicating an active poisoner).

If jfm was an active poisoner, can we hope that there is only one other poisoner (passive) and as long as we stay away from them, we'll be ok?

If the passive poisoner is town, why haven't they fessed up? Maybe they are hoping that if people keep targeting them, SW will cure them. But don't we need SW's protect ability?

Therefore, I believe the passive poisoner is scum (mafia or 3rd party).

Blacky, I'm eagerly awaiting your N1 wording...

[BuJaber]

For the record what I actually said was there is some flavor I recieved from the mod that could indicate that I was redirected by Tobi if I do a bit of connecting the dots. All I'm saying is I can't confirm or deny with confidence that Tobikera definitely targted me or not, so no it's wrong to say "nobody claimed being redirected" because I'm saying something definitely happened to me I just don't know if it was a redirection for sure.

[BuJaber]

Also I realized it's possible that my own action failed night 1 and the PR was a result of that.

Razorvich has done a lot of wild things this game, and nothing is confirmed or explicitly stated.

My role doesn't mention the possibility of failure, but it's possible it doesn't always work.

[BuJaber]

Which really is just more and more reason to not focus too much on rolea yet as there are too many variables. Focus on good old-fashioned scumhunting.

Does anyone disagree that some of the people who voted jfm on day 1 are scum role-fishing and/or jumping on an easy target?

Does anyone disagree that dakky is not showing townie motivation to solve and is focusing on shallow wording and seeing normal things as scummy without any thought given? Just overall someone like dakky is capable of much deeper analysis and logical thought process that his posts seem fake to me.

Does anyone disagree that by nature of his claim he is dangerous to keep alive at lylo and should be lynched earlier?

[Ragian]

First off: I'm on a study tour with 18 students in Edinburgh, so I'm a bit absent till Sunday and have been since Monday. I apoligise for that.

Second: I'm counting three or perhaps four people (can't remember anyone apart from Mets and me now) in favour of whoever is the poisoner to fess up (if it's passive), and I've noted that mets have threatened to exposed whoever he targeted. I.e. there's no majority in favour of the poisoner. If you want the poisoner to reveal her- or himself, say so in a post (and perhaps make it bold, and perhaps help me counting).

Third: I don't have too much town confidence in anyone so far.
- BuJ, however, seems to want to get somewhere.
- Perhaps the same could be said about ZaBeast and I think Blacky (but others agree heavily with me there).
- I think Pika looks as if he's just jumping in on occasion to make sure he's been seen and heard without having to say too much that he's then accountable for - except for "correcting" or questioning newbie play.
- Skoffin is just as absent as me.
- I think that Sirius tries to get stuff done without the means, while TX seems to be reacting to what people say rather than building himself.
- Tobi seems his usual self.
- Aage steps in and out. I find myself agreeing with most of what he says.
- SW seems to be bad at reading his PMs from the mod, but I have no reason not to think he's the healer at this point.
- Chap rubs me the wrong way with some of his points that I feel are arbitrary (someone pointed to that, too).
- Mets, I can't work out either.

So, I suspect the following the most: Pika, chap, skoffin, but I need more time with their input that I have on my hands right now. I'll pick it up Sunday-Monday, but right now I'm stuck with the odd comments on others' post due to work.

[Pikanchion]

Vote: Skoffin

I don't really trust anything she has claimed, and she hasn't posted enough to judge anything else about her this game.

[Tobikera]

Voting pershy is the scummy side of that vote. I'm on the vote. I would have unvoted if I wasn't on vacation. I never bought Ragian's excuse for leading the lynch. Unvoting and the revoting. Mets came in and hammered quickly. Tobi decided to add on the vote even though he was already lynched

If you were in the wagon, were you not agreeing with his arguments?

Tobi was not just "kind of" on jfm's wagon. He casted the first vote, unvoted, then revoted after the lynch was reached because his reason for unvoting was shit.

ZaBeast, you really mean pershy's wagon, don't you? One more time...I did not vote for jfm on his ride to destiny.

No one else was misdirected last night, so where is the double confirmation?

About the redirection: I agree that the fact no one claimed to have been redirected (not only BuJ as tobi could have had his action tampered with) is a little suspicious. If the action was redirected (bussed or otherwise) on scum though it could make sense he wouldn't claim being redirected in order to frame a townie. It is one of the reasons I believe tobi is scum though.

As reiterated by BuJaber above, he could have been misdirected. But, as stated previously, even though I targeted BuJaber, I did not get a successful result, I was just "bumped" and "continued on to my target." He can hardly say he was misdirected for sure, if I was unsuccessful. I can't explain "bumped" and the lack of success. These could be similar nebulous results as the "I was attacked" results declared at the beginning of D2, which did not result in anyone getting nightkilled. And, ZaBeast, I fail to catch your logic concerning "one of the reasons I believe tobi is scum though."

[Ragian]

Vote: Skoffin

I don't really trust anything she has claimed, and she hasn't posted enough to judge anything else about her this game.

So, she has claimed what? That she was probably target N1?

[Pikanchion]

Vote: Skoffin

I don't really trust anything she has claimed, and she hasn't posted enough to judge anything else about her this game.

So, she has claimed what? That she was probably target N1?

Well that and the insistence that there is a Serial Killer. Besides, it was a stronger claim than probably.

All that Skoffin and you never elaborated on what we have been waiting for - How do you know you were targeted for a kill? We need some details on that.

Because I was told as much - stop asking me for more as I will not be telling you anything else at the moment. I don't know why people keep asking me these questions when they are unnecessary to the point.

I cannot come up with any explanation for this which isn't fairly convoluted, especially when you take into consideration the fact we have a Doctor who has not taken credit for this since claiming and another player who claims to be a Commuter. If Skoffin was protected by a Jailor that night I see no reason for her to have kept that fact hidden, if she is bulletproof or a Commuter that calls into question both herself and dakky21, beyond that any explanations I can come up with involve multiple roles, most of which we have no evidence for the existence of.

[TX AG 90]

- I think that Sirius tries to get stuff done without the means, while TX seems to be reacting to what people say rather than building himself.

Really,

I've been more than reactionary, I just don't ramble as much as Sirius.

1. I was the 1st to point a finger at chapcrap for the same reasons you listed above
2. I was the first to point out the possibility of a passive poisoner
3. I was pushing skoffin to tell us more
4. I pushed Mets and Blacky to tell us more
5. I'm the one who keeps saying that jfm never claimed to have poisoned Blacky, many just claimed to have come to that conclusion. ZaBeast is the only one who agrees with me on this so far.

Maybe I haven't had as much interaction with your posts personally, but I've been far from reactionary.

I was very active in D2 trying to put pieces together based on night actions. BuJ said that that route was a rookie trap and to focus on voting record. Problem is, my experience is limited and it's hard for me to spot definite tells in the voting trends from D1 and D2. I have been hesitant to muddle the waters more based on others night action claims, but do chime in when I think something is important or posts are inaccurate or not informative enough (I guess this is sort of reactionary, but I do propose theories and counter theories).

[TX AG 90]

Without knowing how many scum there are, isn't it impossible to determine LyLo?

[Pikanchion]

- I think that Sirius tries to get stuff done without the means, while TX seems to be reacting to what people say rather than building himself.

Really,

I've been more than reactionary, I just don't ramble as much as Sirius.

1. I was the 1st to point a finger at chapcrap for the same reasons you listed above
2. I was the first to point out the possibility of a passive poisoner
3. I was pushing skoffin to tell us more
4. I pushed Mets and Blacky to tell us more
5. I'm the one who keeps saying that jfm never claimed to have poisoned Blacky, many just claimed to have come to that conclusion. ZaBeast is the only one who agrees with me on this so far.

1. Untrue; your first post regarding chapcrap even quotes others saying the thing you were the first to say.
2. Untrue; your posts (particularly these two) at the beginning of day two clearly indicate you believed the poisoning was a result of targeted scum activity, and Ragian made the suggestion immediately afterwards (I actually mentioned it was Ragian just a few pages ago). Even if you had been the first, this would have still been baseless speculation on your part and hardly a point in your favour.
3. Sure.
4. Oh, well that's certainly an interesting way of saying "I was rolefishing for blacky365's role, and Metsfanmax called me out on it".
5. Sure, but then jfm10 made the claim "My night attack came back successful" too, and if that were true blacky365 is the only possible target. Putting any weight on anything jfm10 said at any point is worthless though anyway, if jfm10 did or did not explicitly claim one thing or another is irrelevant.

If you're going to try defending yourself on a collection of weak points perhaps it would be wise to at least check if they're even true?

[dakky21]

I'm having a hard time in this game. I'm re-reading last 10-15 pages and then the whole D1 and D2 but no one said anything out of the ordinary, or said something non town (jfm not counted, Pershy actually is counted).

Can we consider there are no night kills because there is no scum and it's just a brainfcuk game of Raz... I have a lot of experience with his games (not strictly mafia) so this setup wouldn't surprise me...

Anyway, if I am correct, and there are two opposing sides of town, instead of a classic game town vs scum, then the whole approach must be taken differently.

[dakky21]

That actually doesn't make a sense with my commuter (hider) ability but maybe that's exactly what he wanted. As I said, would not be the first time.